[Dungeon Fantasy] Point total for game with more social play

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Colarmel

What I'd do, if the table is right for it, is just allow RP to supplant skill rolls. Leave the skill rolls in place when the desired results step out of the realm of reasonable results for the interaction, so the Bard still has stuff he can do others can't. And make sure the Bard knows how you plan on running social stuff.

Mostly I agree. One thing that I've seen happen in my own games, though, is assuming a bunch of no-name adventurers can simply get an audience with the High Noble, CEO, or whatnot. The "social combat" nature of flyting in Nordlond also asks for some mechanical help here to balance player skill/character skill if needed. If folks want to roleplay through that, and I'm all for doing so (as you say) if the table is right for it, having some mechanical way of gently informing the mismatched group of scrubs that shows up demanding an audience with the King that, um . . . (a) No. and (b) No. and (c) Probably not, but certainly bathe first is sometimes useful.

[Kromm]

Here's an example using the least-social profession in Adventurers: the scout.

Ranger Sergeant Elayne of Crosston

250 points

The daughter of a woodsman who dwelt near the village of Crosston, Elayne was always her father's daughter and never one to back down from a challenge. She spent a great deal of time sneaking around in the woods, despite the dangers lurking therein. These included wild beasts, unnatural monsters, and – at times – bandits.

As a teenager, Elayne stumbled upon an entire bandit camp . . . and decided to do something about it. She crept past the sentries, entered the bandit leader's tent unseen, and tied him up in his sleep. She then dragged him back to her family's house, where her father – in shocked surprise – simply loaded the prisoner onto a wagon and headed into town, Elayne by his side.

In the village, the two were stopped by a strong force of Rangers, led by the region's Master Woodsman: right hand of the Ranger Prefect himself! The Rangers took one look in the wagon and escorted Elayne and her father before their leader. As it turned out, the "bandit leader" was a bloody assassin hired to burn Crosston to the ground as part of some necromancer's dark designs. By taking him in, Elayne had singlehandedly won a battle in a secret war between the King and a feared cult.

The Master Woodsman told Elayne that were she ever to consider the Rangers as a career, they would be honored to have her. She took him up on the offer, and has served ever since. She has upheld the law and protected the King's forests in every corner of the kingdom, and has come to be a well-liked and well-known Ranger Sergeant.

Elayne has a soft spot in her heart for villages and towns, and sometimes thinks other Rangers are too caught up with protecting game preserves and borderlands to remember that their first duty is to bring down bandits and keep civilization safe. She has a special fondness for her old hometown of Crosston. Its citizens regard Elayne as their hero, and at least there, she can do no wrong.

ST 13 [30]; DX 14 [80]; IQ 11 [20]; HT 12 [20].

Damage 1d/2d-1; BL 34 lbs.; HP 13 [0]; Will 11 [0]; Per 14 [15]; FP 12 [0]; Basic Speed 7.00 [10]; Basic Move 7 [0].

Advantages: Claim to Hospitality (Rangers across the kingdom) [5]; Heroic Archer [20]; Outdoorsman 2 [20]; Ranger Rank 2 [10]; Reputation +3 (Savior of Crosston) [5].

Disadvantages: Code of Honor (Soldier's) [-10]; Honesty (12) [-10]; Overconfidence (6) [-10]; Sense of Duty (Kingdom) [-10]; Vow (Own no more than what can be carried) [-10].

Quirks: Always trying to convince companions to stop by Crosston [-1]; Doesn't distinguish between "bandits" and "assassins" [-1]; Finds city-phobic, loner rangers "quaint" [-1]; Glory-hound [-1]; Insists on "Ranger Sergeant" ("Sergeant" won't do!) [-1].

Skills: Bow (A) DX+4 [16]-18; Brawling (E) DX [1]-14; Broadsword (A) DX+2 [8]-16; Camouflage (E) IQ+3 [2]-14†; Cartography (A) IQ+1 [4]-12; Climbing (A) DX-1 [1]-13; Fast-Draw (Arrow) (E) DX [1]-14; Fast-Draw (Sword) (E) DX [1]-14; First Aid (E) IQ [1]-11; Gesture (E) IQ+1 [2]-12; Hiking (A) HT [2]-12; Intimidation (A) Will [2]-11; Knot-Tying (E) DX [1]-14; Leadership (A) IQ [2]-11; Mimicry (Bird Calls) (H) IQ+1 [2]-12†; Navigation (Land) (A) IQ+1 [1]-12†; Observation (A) Per [2]-14; Riding (Horse) (A) DX-1 [1]-13; Search (A) Per-1 [1]-13; Shadowing (A) IQ+1 [4]-12; Shield (E) DX+2 [4]-16; Stealth (A) DX [2]-14; Streetwise (A) IQ-1 [1]-10; Survival (Woodlands) (A) Per+1 [1]-15†; Tracking (A) Per+2 [2]-16†; Traps (A) IQ+1 [4]-12; Wrestling (A) DX-1 [1]-13.

† Includes +2 for Outdoorsman.

These traits are optional uses of advantage and disadvantage points to add a social dimension.
These skills count toward the minimum "social" skill requirement.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I wouldn't make People use their quirk points, I'd allow them to shuffle the mandatory skill points around I think if they'd prefer

The extreme flexibility of quirk points makes them tge oh so most precious of precious resource for DF chargen and taking that away by forcing some to go to social skills would be sad

I'm not sure I agree. The GM has every right to say, "Social interaction will be a key focus of the campaign, pushing fighting and magic to a lower tier. Please invest quirk points in this instead of just loading up on more spells, higher combat skills, and gear bought with points." Otherwise, a lot of players will do the latter things, and you won't get the same social focus.

Of course, the GM does owe it to players to actually make what they buy important. If the "social" campaign proves to be standard hack 'n' slash with the rare skill roll in town, the players will be annoyed. On the other hand, if it involves entire sessions in town where nobody is armed, there's no fighting, and casting spells on citizens brings huge fines, those social skills will be precious indeed.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Colarmel

What I'd do, if the table is right for it, is just allow RP to supplant skill rolls. Leave the skill rolls in place when the desired results step out of the realm of reasonable results for the interaction, so the Bard still has stuff he can do others can't. And make sure the Bard knows how you plan on running social stuff.

I think we could take a page from those old dialog-driven video games: Each major social interaction comes with a decision tree.

Most of the important stuff is a matter of choosing the right option. That needn't be the best option! What's "right" for any given character is a question of roleplaying, and ultimately what's "right" for the player.

But some options should be tougher, and require skill rolls. They're open to all, but only likely to have good outcomes for the skilled.

I'm thinking of things like this:

1. No need for gold, m'lord. Serving the realm is all the reward I need!
2. Many thanks for the reward, m'lord!
3. Bah, I thought we were worth more!
4. [Diplomacy or Merchant] Surely m'lord can afford a few more crowns for his loyal servants?
5. [Intimidation] M'lord should realize that his future safety relies on well-paid servants . . .

Choices without skills would produce automatic outcomes ([1] no money but a better reaction, [2] average money and an average reaction, or [3] average money and a worse reaction). Those with skills would produce outcomes linked to the result of the roll ([4] success gives more money and an average reaction, failure means average money and a worse reaction, or [5] success gives more money and a worse reaction, failure means no money and a worse reaction).

Of course, the GM would have to entertain lots more than five options in a face-to-face game, but I think that's the general path I'd take.

[Kalzazz]

I just feel it will work better just allowing the Scout to reallocate 5 of the 56 points already lined out for skills than requiring him to dip into his 5 precious quirk points

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by phayman53

Just wondering:

If you wanted to run a Dungeon Fantasy game with the standard combat power level found in the DF supplements, but with more social interaction and other more serious RPG element, how many points would you add to the DF templates for social and other traits and skills that DF glosses over? I'm thinking 25-50, that way every class could have some decent non-combat skills and abilities, but ones that already have those skills will be even better.

Thoughts?

Why would you run a DF campaign at all if social interaction is desireable? I mean, isn't the point of DF to duplicate that game that doesn't bother about social stuff?

[Kalzazz]

DF gives you a good starting point for your basic more Muggle type humanoids with swords and spells so it really works well as a baseline if you want an extremely grounded almost mundane no psychic blueberry muffins fantasy game

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I just feel it will work better just allowing the Scout to reallocate 5 of the 56 points already lined out for skills than requiring him to dip into his 5 precious quirk points

Speaking only as the writer: I feel it's more important that the scout keep all the mandatory stuff it takes to be a scout – which task-resolution rules, power-ups, items, spells, abilities of other professions, etc. just take for granted all scouts have – than it is that the scout's player retain total control over 5 points that no rule anywhere makes any assumptions about. Taking points out of the former can lead to incompetence or not qualifying for something the rules just assume will be there. Taking points out of the latter doesn't deprive anybody of customization . . . it just channels customization down a specific path the GM feels is important to the campaign. In effect, the GM's requirement for those 5 points becomes as important as the game's requirement for the other points in skills.

Obviously, a given GM is free to disagree. If so, it's on that GM to figure out what skill points are "safe" to reallocate and what skill points may result in a broken scout if spent elsewhere.

But honestly, I don't see how those 5 points are so "precious." There's literally nothing they can buy that the first 5 points someone earns can't buy. That's a basic tenet of the game. All using those points for social skills does is put off a few non-social capabilities as in-game rewards to be bought a couple of game sessions later. That way, social game play can start in Session One, which is usually the "how you all meet in town" session where social abilities are most important.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I just feel it will work better just allowing the Scout to reallocate 5 of the 56 points already lined out for skills than requiring him to dip into his 5 precious quirk points

I'd lean towards taking things out of the advantage pool than the skill list. The advantage pool is much more flexible.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Why would you run a DF campaign at all if social interaction is desireable? I mean, isn't the point of DF to duplicate that game that doesn't bother about social stuff?

To be fair, DF actually supports social play! DF 2 offers many standardized social tasks to perform, DF 7 adds significant social depth to the temple, DF 10 offers a variety of social encounters, DF 15 addresses hiring and firing, DF 17 is all about larger social organizations (including towns), DF Setting: Caverntown is a town and has lots of extra social rules (covering laws, taxes, property ownership, and goods and services), and DF Treasures 1 delves into currency systems and culturally linked artistic traditions. It's just that this stuff is "advanced" – almost exactly as in that game – and thus mostly found in later add-ons . . .