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Old 04-29-2020, 10:31 AM   #41
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: GURPS Influence Skills: Force Surrender

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
snip
I don't see how you can reach that conclusion.
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Old 04-29-2020, 02:49 PM   #42
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Default Re: GURPS Influence Skills: Force Surrender

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I don't see how you can reach that conclusion.
I reach that conclusion because, narratively, random reaction rolls are sometimes inappropriate, since they can result in situations that can derail an adventure. You can utterly roll Very Good+ on the hitman sent to assassinate the PCs, or Very Bad on PC's wife and children. All of that simply because they set their eyes on the PC, not because of his specific actions.

Because of that, GM is given an option to pre-define the result of the reaction roll, be it Neutral/Bad in case of a Hitman, and Neutral/Good in case of PC's family.

This should not deprive the PC from ability to influence these people via diplomacy, threats, whatever else, because screaming at your wife and rolling intimidation check probably should not elicit a shrug from her because her reaction is locked to Normal/Good by GM. That makes no sense and deprives PCs from being able to do anything of note with influence skills.

As such, I understood that such choice simply replaces Random Reaction Roll with GM-determined result on the reaction table, and Influence skills should still work to alter that, if at least on the first meeting. It doesn't mean that reaction roll was already made - it means that if there is to be a random reaction roll, the result is always the one GM determines. A measure to remove randomness, not make some people effectivey Indomitable or Unfazeable (both very expensive advantages).

P.S.: The blue button on the quote sends you to the post quoted, so I am clarifying the post you quote-linked.
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Last edited by MrFix; 04-29-2020 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 04-29-2020, 02:51 PM   #43
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Default Re: GURPS Influence Skills: Force Surrender

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I reach that conclusion ...
Which conclusion?
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Old 04-29-2020, 03:21 PM   #44
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Default Re: GURPS Influence Skills: Force Surrender

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This should not deprive the PC from ability to influence these people via diplomacy, threats, whatever else, because screaming at your wife and rolling intimidation check probably should not elicit a shrug from her because her reaction is locked to Normal/Good by GM. That makes no sense and deprives PCs from being able to do anything of note with influence skills.
No one is suggesting this. You are attacking a straw man.

Reaction rolls are used when the GM does not have a set reaction in mind. Influence rolls are used when the GM decides that the character has a chance of overriding a reaction before it is made, whether random or set. The GM can decide, by the book, that no influence roll will change a particular NPC's reaction in a given situation.

No one is saying that the GM should give an NPC an automatic Good (or anything) reaction to anything the PCs can do. No one is saying that a particular NPC should be impervious to all influence rolls without some kind of explanation. The GM can decide that a particular NPC's reaction will be preset against certain situations. That NPC isn't immune to influence; the NPC simply won't be moved by a particular tactic in a particular situation.

See also page B495 about "Predetermined Reactions," which talks about predetermined best-case and worst-case reactions.

As the Basic Set reminds us, "never substitute random die rolls for reason and logic."
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Old 04-29-2020, 03:49 PM   #45
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Default Re: GURPS Influence Skills: Force Surrender

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
There's exactly ZERO rules that state that you need 15 minutes to deploy influence check. Talking is a free action, and limiting it is a GM option.
Fair enough. You're the GM. How many minutes do you imagine it takes to change someone's mind about you once it's set without any kind of visual aids or evidence that can be presented?

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
I reach that conclusion because, narratively, random reaction rolls are sometimes inappropriate, since they can result in situations that can derail an adventure. You can utterly roll Very Good+ on the hitman sent to assassinate the PCs, or Very Bad on PC's wife and children. All of that simply because they set their eyes on the PC, not because of his specific actions.
You're reading too much into Reaction rolls. They're not for NPCs that have established relationships for you. They are for literally random reactions where you have no base-line relationship to base behavior on. There could be a circumstance where you'd check a reaction roll to your own wife but it would involve a fairly unique circumstance where her reaction would be unpredictable. A hit man could have a Very Good+ reaction. It's not very good storytelling but absolutely a hit man could stalk you for a while and decide you're not worth the money. The Point is reaction rolls aren't for determining behavior when there's already an appropriate reaction.
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Old 04-29-2020, 04:45 PM   #46
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Default Re: GURPS Influence Skills: Force Surrender

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
No one is suggesting this. You are attacking a straw man.

Reaction rolls are used when the GM does not have a set reaction in mind. Influence rolls are used when the GM decides that the character has a chance of overriding a reaction before it is made, whether random or set. The GM can decide, by the book, that no influence roll will change a particular NPC's reaction in a given situation.

No one is saying that the GM should give an NPC an automatic Good (or anything) reaction to anything the PCs can do. No one is saying that a particular NPC should be impervious to all influence rolls without some kind of explanation. The GM can decide that a particular NPC's reaction will be preset against certain situations. That NPC isn't immune to influence; the NPC simply won't be moved by a particular tactic in a particular situation.

See also page B495 about "Predetermined Reactions," which talks about predetermined best-case and worst-case reactions.

As the Basic Set reminds us, "never substitute random die rolls for reason and logic."
Alright, that makes sense, I thought you meant something else. So to round back to the topic of the thread... How do you see forcing an enemy to surrender with the help of social aspects? Is it a 'request for aid' mentioned in reaction table, that requires a separate influence skill roll with a penalty based on his current reaction?

I am still trying to understand a step by step process of it all, regardless of outcome, and where social skills fit into that, if at all.

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Fair enough. You're the GM. How many minutes do you imagine it takes to change someone's mind about you once it's set without any kind of visual aids or evidence that can be presented?
Depends on the line and PC objectives. Gonna paint a bit of a situation.

Let's say there's a crook X holding hostages for whatever reason. PCs bring his wife to the scene and begin the negotiation.

"X, your wife is here, she wants you to stop and let the hostages go. You can still set things right. Let us help you. Don't let it be the last time you see her." (Shouldn't be more than 3-5 seconds to output this sentence, call it Concentrate roll since a skill roll is associated with it)

And a diplomacy roll to check how convincing the negotiator sounds. Opposing will test from the Crook X to be convinced. Let's assume he fails, so he becomes more suggestible (gains good reaction to cops via diplomacy) and become reluctant about the situation. If he doesn't give up at this time, we might move to step 2.

Now that the crook X is at Good reaction, the negotiator invokes Request Aid (At +1 due to Good reaction). I am unsure if it's opposed or not.

"X, the hostages have suffered enough, release the elderly. We'll send in food and water if you do."

(2-3 seconds to speak into megaphone/telephone, Concentrate maneuver)

Diplomacy+1 roll, plus whatever other bonuses for offering a payment for the 'aid'.

That's at least my theory how things work as they appear in basic set.

Quote:
You're reading too much into Reaction rolls. They're not for NPCs that have established relationships for you. They are for literally random reactions where you have no base-line relationship to base behavior on. There could be a circumstance where you'd check a reaction roll to your own wife but it would involve a fairly unique circumstance where her reaction would be unpredictable. A hit man could have a Very Good+ reaction. It's not very good storytelling but absolutely a hit man could stalk you for a while and decide you're not worth the money. The Point is reaction rolls aren't for determining behavior when there's already an appropriate reaction.
Alright, I suppose that also makes sense.

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Which conclusion?
The one in the post you've linked to in your previous reply. It has a very clear conclusion.
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Last edited by MrFix; 04-29-2020 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 04-29-2020, 05:30 PM   #47
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Default Re: GURPS Influence Skills: Force Surrender

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-snip-
But you replied to two different quotes in that post.
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Old 04-29-2020, 06:04 PM   #48
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Default Re: GURPS Influence Skills: Force Surrender

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But you replied to two different quotes in that post.
The first part, second part isn't a conclusion but appreciation of opinion.
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Old 04-29-2020, 06:07 PM   #49
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Default Re: GURPS Influence Skills: Force Surrender

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-snip-
But you must have concluded it was worth appreciating.
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Old 04-29-2020, 06:17 PM   #50
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: GURPS Influence Skills: Force Surrender

This thread has had multipole reports and I, for one, have neither the time nor the mental acumen to sort this out right now. Thread closed to curtail the immediately problem, and I'm asking the GURPS moderators to look closely to see whether infractions and/or bans are warranted here.

When people ask why needs to happen to get new players interested in GURPS, stopping this kind of petty sniping is very high on my list of changes I'd like to see.
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