-80% Limitation Cap: Any Exceptions?

[Otaku]

Someone was having an issue with a character creation tool on another thread, and inexperienced player that I am, I was wondering if the flat -80% limitation guideline is a bit too broad. Tacking on a "...without GM approval." would still make it easy for the GM to avoid overpowered builds where someone is trying to get something "for free". If that is still a concern, amend that to "...without GM approval (Note: GMs are discouraged from allowing this at all.). Or perhaps this is implied in general?

Of course, one might wonder why that is an issue at all? Well, one reason why Alternate Abilities is a multiplier and not a Limitation is to bypass this restriction, isn't it? Or is that another misreading/misunderstanding of the rules on my part? ^^'

Besides multipliers, there are a decent amount of traits and rules that (often on a case by case basis) fudge these rules already. I already mentioned Alternate Abilities where in order to keep the discount functioning as intended, it has to be a "multiplier" instead of a Limitation; in fact multipliers in general appear to be a workaround (even in instances where they predate the Limitation cap to my knowledge). You've got multiple Advantages that have two fixed starting price points because of how they work and possibly because of the Limitation cap; things that are 0 points if they "replace" a baseline trait but have a positive point value if taken in addition to such a thing. There are a few Advantages that become Disadvantages if they are "Always On" as well.

While it complicates issues for the GM if s/he has to worry about vetoing obvious abuses, that is kind of part of the job anyway. Given that something like Shadow Form can function as an Advantage, Disadvantage, or 0-point trait*, it does seem like you can make an Advantage so full of drawbacks that it becomes a Disadvantage or even overall "neutral" trait. I can definitely see a big 100 point Advantage coming with so many drawbacks built in that it was knocked down to under a 20 point Advantage.

*If you can carry up to Heavy Encumbrance, that is a +100% Enhancement that I thought turns it into a 0 point trait - is that another misunderstanding?)

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Someone was having an issue with a character creation tool on another thread, and inexperienced player that I am, I was wondering if the flat -80% limitation guideline is a bit too broad. Tacking on a "...without GM approval."

What for? You can after all do anything at all with GM approval.

The main reason it is there is probably to avoid a disaster with additive costs. Consider two -50% limitations, applied without this cap, they make the advantage free, but if the rules used multiplicative modifiers, it would still have 1/4 it's initial cost. That's a big disconnect, and sticking a maximum on the sum avoids it ever getting too bad. Personally I don't think multiplicative modifiers are all that much more complex, but it's probably way too late to rebalance and recalculate everything now.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Personally I don't think multiplicative modifiers are all that much more complex, but it's probably way too late to rebalance and recalculate everything now.

Yeah, I initially tried this with Blight Years. It didn't work at all.

[gilbertocarlos]

You can always buy the perk Rules Exemption(-80% rule)(1).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

You can always buy the perk Rules Exemption(-80% rule)(1).

That seems broken. I'd think you'd be ill-advised to allow that.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That seems broken. I'd think you'd be ill-advised to allow that.

Yes, it's I'll advised, but since the multiplier system was not used and some people really crave discounts, it's the only way to do that.

And if you think it seems broken, just wait until some guy get's an innate attack with -120% and start gaining points by having a stronger attack.

[Kromm]

I think that Modifiers and Minimum Costs (Psionic Powers, p. 19) is the clearest "official" statement of the GM's powers in this regard.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I think that Modifiers and Minimum Costs (Psionic Powers, p. 19) is the clearest "official" statement of the GM's powers in this regard.

I don't have that and won't be able to get it for quite some time, but I do appreciate that there is something official on this out there.

I thank everyone else for weighing in. I definitely realize there are abusive situations out there, but it kind of goes both ways; the only reason it isn't a big deal is the obvious; you can ignore your character concept and restrict yourself in design so that you never have more than -80% worth of Limitations. This can be a bit like the Disadvantage cap; the suggested guidelines are there for a reason. This may very well be a "me" thing, so I owe even more thanks for those commenting; the idea that the Disadvantage cap is a recommended guideline and not a hard rule (well, at least as much as anything is in GURPS) is pretty clear, but the maximum Limitation value seems quite firm.

Getting "something for nothing" is always an issue, but so is overpricing traits. Some "Advantages", once heavily modified, really can become more of a hindrance than a help, as per Shadow Form.

[ericthered]

Yeah, the idea is that the advantage will always be worth something, and multiplicative modifiers can get hairy. I've personally run a variant where once you hit 80%, you can still apply modifiers, but they apply to the 1/5 value. So if you have a 20 point advantage with -105% in modifiers, you pay ([20]*.2 = 4)*.75) = [3] points on it. It was invented to be able to denote the difference between someone who maxed out their jumper limitations at -80% and someone who went by the concept and accumulated over -200% -- that ability was not worth 20 points!

If I cared more, I'd build a table that slowed the absolute geometric crash in points from -40% to -80%, with an actual 80% discount kicking in at about -120% or so.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

And if you think it seems broken, just wait until some guy get's an innate attack with -120% and start gaining points by having a stronger attack.

That's why I said it was broken...