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Old 07-21-2020, 05:17 AM   #11
Juca
 
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Default Re: Help stating a Firearm: The American 180 .22LR SMG

Rupert, I said recoil 1 because the kriss vector, which is a .45 submachine gun (with a delayed recoil absortion system, but still seems to have more kick than de 180 .22LR), appeared on one of the GURPS books as having recoil 1.
I think, in the case of the 180 american, that the combination of RoF 20 and a very light cartridge, in a moderatelly heavy gun, can be combined to grant it effective recoil of 1 for long bursts.
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Old 07-21-2020, 05:40 AM   #12
johndallman
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Default Re: Help stating a Firearm: The American 180 .22LR SMG

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Originally Posted by Juca View Post
Rupert, I said recoil 1 because the kriss vector, which is a .45 submachine gun (with a delayed recoil absortion system, but still seems to have more kick than de 180 .22LR), appeared on one of the GURPS books as having recoil 1.
Was that 3e or 4e? In 4e, Rcl 1 is reserved for beam weapons and the like.
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Old 07-21-2020, 05:59 AM   #13
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Default Re: Help stating a Firearm: The American 180 .22LR SMG

The Kriss Super V is on page 65 of GURPS Tactical Shooting.
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Old 07-21-2020, 06:16 AM   #14
johndallman
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Default Re: Help stating a Firearm: The American 180 .22LR SMG

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The Kriss Super V is on page 65 of GURPS Tactical Shooting.
OK, but that has a fairly elaborate recoil-delaying system. I would not give the American 180 Rcl 1, but your game, your rules.
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Old 07-21-2020, 06:29 AM   #15
Juca
 
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Default Re: Help stating a Firearm: The American 180 .22LR SMG

I think that the perceive recoil on the American 180 is lesser than the Kriss. And its advanced recoil damper don't seem that effective, it looks more like a recoil retardant, it makes the recoil be felt a little after the shooting.
But if you don't want it, and still wants the american 180 to be distinctive, maybe make it behave as if it had an integral compensator while in burst fire.
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Old 07-21-2020, 06:29 AM   #16
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Default Re: Help stating a Firearm: The American 180 .22LR SMG

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Originally Posted by Juca View Post
Rupert, I said recoil 1 because the kriss vector, which is a .45 submachine gun (with a delayed recoil absortion system, but still seems to have more kick than de 180 .22LR), appeared on one of the GURPS books as having recoil 1.
And that was, in my opinion then and now, a mistake.

If a 10 pound SMG firing .45 ACP gets Rcl 1, even allowing for a flash recoil system, etc., we should be seeing Rcl 1 from .22 LR rifles, and SMGs like the PPSsH-41 with it's 11.7 pound weight and low-recoiling cartridge, and I suspect the FN P90 could also make the case.
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Old 07-21-2020, 06:43 AM   #17
Juca
 
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Default Re: Help stating a Firearm: The American 180 .22LR SMG

Rupert, I think its system is overrrated too. If I was to use the American 180 on my games, I would give it recoil 1, but more for gaming balance reasons. If I was aiming for more realism, I would give it +1 for its ammo magazine being top heavy and acting like a weight, countering recoil a little, and a further +1 for it having so little muzzle blast that you can literally walk the burst towards your target.
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Old 07-21-2020, 07:11 AM   #18
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Default Re: Help stating a Firearm: The American 180 .22LR SMG

If you're doing that, mounted weapons should have Rcl 1 as a rule. They don't.

As for game balance, the American 180 was never very popular except as a fun gun on the range.
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Old 07-21-2020, 10:02 AM   #19
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Default Re: Help stating a Firearm: The American 180 .22LR SMG

Wow, I remember when the American 180 (or AMD 180) was going to be the Next Big Thing in firearms.

I think it's worth bearing in mind what "Recoil" as a stat means in GURPS4. Rcl 2 doesn't mean that you need to be strong to hold the thing on target; it means that second-shot accuracy is low, and the hit point will jump around even if you bracket it in a vice on the firing bench (internal flexing). What RoF 20 gives you is +4 to hit with one of the huge cloud of bullets you're pumping out.

Though granted, this kind of RoF is a place where I think the GURPS system breaks down a bit.

This isn't one of the weapons like the mounted machine guns which were too accurate and would put a bunch of bullets into the same hole in the already-destroyed target.
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