How specific is aiming?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Though that does leave you open to debates about edge cases. If I aim at a battleship and then decide to shoot through a particular porthole to hit a person who happens to be looking out of it that moment, can I claim the Aim bonus?

I'd say if you're aiming at the battleship, then you can only get the bonus if you shoot the battleship. Sure, you can target a specific porthole, but you cannot factor in any adjustments related to where within that porthole you can see a humanoid silhouette if you want the Aim bonus to count. So if you hit the porthole, you roll randomly as to whether you also happened to hit the human in it.

Gamist? Sure. But it seems to be a good way to cut down on abuse.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I'd say if you're aiming at the battleship, then you can only get the bonus if you shoot the battleship. Sure, you can target a specific porthole, but you cannot factor in any adjustments related to where within that porthole you can see a humanoid silhouette if you want the Aim bonus to count. So if you hit the porthole, you roll randomly as to whether you also happened to hit the human in it.

Gamist? Sure. But it seems to be a good way to cut down on abuse.

Pretty much this.

Roll at skill + Aim bonuses (Acc, bracing, extra Aim, etc.) + speed/range penalty + SM of battleship (+14 for an Iowa-class) + hit-location penalty for "a porthole" (canonically -7; see p. B554) + miscellaneous penalties (darkness, fog, rough water, etc.) + miscellaneous bonuses (All-Out Attack (Determined), laser, rapid fire, etc.). If you hit, great! As the rules say, you then "Check for an occupant hit (see Occupant Hit Table)." For an SM +14 battleship with 2,700 people aboard, extending the table down three lines and over three columns would give an 8 or less chance of hitting someone through the porthole no matter how high your effective skill was.

Or you could aim at the visible person instead of the battleship and roll at skill + Aim bonuses + speed/range penalty + cover modifier (-2 for "target only partly exposed" or worse) + miscellaneous penalties + miscellaneous bonuses, and try to hit just that person, with success meaning you do. In this case, "person" is a distinct entity from "battleship" and you can aim at either, just as you could aim at a horse or its rider, a human or the parasitic alien slug on his back, Twiki or Dr. Theopolis, etc. Yes, it's pure gamist thinking that the system deems portions of entities "hit locations" while distinct characters and machines that occupy exactly the same space are deemed distinct "targets," but that's necessary for a game. In essence, if it has its own character sheet (and vehicles do!), it isn't a mere hit location.

[Edges]

"I Aim at the universe."
-Some Munchkin

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Edges

"I Aim at the universe."
-Some Munchkin

Unfortunately, some of it will be behind you, too far away for you to see, etc. If you can't clearly see at least the silhouette of the bulk of the thing, you can't Aim at it. For ordinary humans standing around on planets, that rules out anything much larger than a really huge building, vehicle, or geological formation. ;)

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Though that does leave you open to debates about edge cases. If I aim at a battleship and then decide to shoot through a particular porthole to hit a person who happens to be looking out of it that moment, can I claim the Aim bonus?

I'd limit it to some SM/Hit Location difference. 10 (the difference in "person" and "person's eyes through eye slits") seems as reasonable a place to draw the line as any.

So if you're aiming at a car (+3 to hit), you could attack the head of the driver (-7 to hit). If you aim at a battleship (+13 to hit), the secondary turrets are about as small as you could reasonably target. Anything smaller than that, and you need to aim smaller.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Attack, All-Out Attack, or Move and Attack requires you to shoot at a particular part of your target or to declare that you're leaving that to chance; then, and not before, is when hit location comes into play.

Query on this point: this is declared when you make the small-A attack, or when you declare the big A Attack, All-Out Attack, Move and Attack, or Committed Attack?

User case: Bob the Barbarian (plus friends) is fighting an orc and an ogre. Bob has a very large axe and likes to make rapid-strikes.

If Bob has to declare "I chop the orc twice in the neck with an Attack with a Rapid Strike!" and the first blow sends the orcs head flying artistically over the fight, well, there's no orc neck any more. Sad Bob loses his second attack, or takes a penalty for trying to redirect it, or something.

If Bob instead has to declare "I Attack with a Rapid Strike!" and then "For my first attack, I chop the orc in the neck!" and then goes on to resolve the attack, and finds out the orc is artistically decapitated again, the second attack is still undefined and can be "For my second attack, I continue my swing and hack the ogre in the thigh!"

We've been playing with the second, but I always wonder a little about intent.

Bonus points for the people at home: Would you change your answer if playing with Dodge This! or similar house-rules about early-declaration of defenses?

[Gollum]

So, if I do understand well what is said here...

My original goal is to shoot someone's leg, to prevent him running away. I don't tell the GM I'm aiming at his leg. I just tell him I'm aiming at this guy, for three turns (to have the maximum bonus), and this is only when I pull the trigger that I precise what exact hit location I was aiming at 3 turns before...

I can freely take benefit of what happen next ...

• If the guy come closer (during 3 turns, he can cover about 15 yards), I am able to decide that I aim at his foot instead of his leg, because it is more easy to cripple and now at about the same penalty that the leg was (with the modified range compensating the increase hit location penalty).
• If the guy goes farer away, I am able to decide that I was aiming at his torso to avoid the increased range penalty by reducing the hit location penalty.
• If he hides his legs behind some cover, I can decide that I was actually aiming his arm, or his hand, or his head, since I cannot anymore see his legs.
• And so on...

That's a huge gamistic advantage, indeed.

But that is neither fair nor realistic.

In reality, if I aim at someone's foot, I'm not aiming at his head and vice versa. The head can be farer from the foot than the guy is from one of his fellow...

And two different foes can be far much closer from each other than the stern of a battleship is from it's bow. But here, still no matter. I just aim at the battleship, take benefit from the +14, from the increase aiming time, and only decide before pulling the trigger if I was aiming at the bow (motors) or at the stern (cannons) or right in the middle (captain's cabin)... Now, If I was aiming at one sailor, I absolutely cannot decide that I am aiming at an other one, even if this last is just one yard on his right...

Is this really how it is supposed to work?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Bruno

We've been playing with the second, but I always wonder a little about intent.

Ditto.

Bonus points for the people at home: Would you change your answer if playing with Dodge This! or similar house-rules about early-declaration of defenses?

Actually... I do use Dodge This! and I do require all ranged attacks to be declared before the rolls...


Hmmm.

I think it's because with a melee attack there is time to assess (to some degree) success of attack before the second is launched, whereas with ranged attacks you can't (not really).

[Michael Cule]

Originally Posted by Edges

"I Aim at the universe."
-Some Munchkin

And he will probably hit some bit of it.

With luck he will not hit any of the bits that are his own body.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Michael Cule

And he will probably hit some bit of it.

With luck he will not hit any of the bits that are his own body.

No, no, that's more simple than that. You aim at the universe for 3 turns, take benefit from the + Acc + 2 bonus and only then choose your precise target (the part of the universe) that is the most interesting for you just before pulling the trigger ...

OK. This argument is really, really exaggerated! I know. Not Edges' one (which just a joke). Mine, in this post ...

But don't you find that aiming at a huge battleship for three turns and only choosing where you exactly want to shoot at the end of three turns (while you can't change from human target no matter how close they are), is a bit strange too? There are dozens of yards between the stern and the bow of a huge battleship.