Precision Aiming without scope?

[Mozaki]

Together with my friends, I came across an interesting situation while making my character. Maybe we've missed a rule somewhere, as there are quite many rules and we are pretty much new to the gurps system (we have a lot of experience with dnd though). I will try to explain the situation and hopefully somebody could help us out. If we made any other mistakes, please feel free to point them out :)

My character is going to be a sniper (tech lvl 6-7), so I thought it would be a good idea to take the 'Deadeye' and 'Precision Aiming' skills from the 'Tactical Shooting' book. My rifle has a +5 Acc bonus and I've added a variable-power scope, which gives another +2 Acc. Let's assume I succeed all the necessary skill checks for precision aiming. I will only look at the bonuses gained from the weapon, the scope, aiming, and the extra bonus through precision aiming (the other bonuses like bracing, guns skill etc will remain the same anyway in the two situations I'm going to describe).

This would result in the following:
1 sec --> +5 weapon +1 scope
2 sec --> +5 weapon +2 scope +1 aiming
3 sec --> +5 weapon +2 scope +2 aiming
6 sec --> +5 weapon +2 scope +2 aiming +1 precision aiming
11 sec --> +5 weapon +2 scope +2 aiming +2 precision aiming

So, after 11 seconds of aiming a total of +11Acc would be the maximum I can reach (since the scope has +2, the bonus from precision aiming can't exceed +2).
Now we have been thinking, what if I just get rid of the scope so i can claim a maximum precision aiming bonus of +5 (since my weapon got a +5 bonus)?

Then it would look like this:
1 sec --> +5 weapon
2 sec --> +5 weapon +1 aiming
3 sec --> +5 weapon +2 aiming
6 sec --> +5 weapon +2 aiming +1 precision aiming
11 sec --> +5 weapon+2 aiming +2 precision aiming
22 sec --> +5 weapon+2 aiming +3 precision aiming
41 sec --> +5 weapon+2 aiming +4 precision aiming
81 sec --> +5 weapon+2 aiming +5 precision aiming

In this case, I would get a total of +12Acc after 81 seconds of aiming.
Of course there won't be many situations where the +1Acc will be worth the additional 70 seconds of aiming, but we found it strange that it is possible to get a higher aiming bonus by removing the scope.
So first of all, are we applying the rules correctly here? Is it possible to use precision aiming without having a scope attached to your weapon? Is there anything we have missed? Are there any other useful remarks that relate to this situation?
Any help will be greatly appreciated :)

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Mozaki

Is it possible to use precision aiming without having a scope attached to your weapon?

You do seem to have discovered a problem here. Precision Aiming says:

Originally Posted by Tactical Shooting p26

It requires at least three of somewhere to brace, a scope, ballistic tables tailored to the weapon and ammunition, a wind gauge, or a trained spotter, unless you have Deadeye (p. 38).

That seems to say you don't need a scope, so the limit on Precision Aiming of the lower of the scope bonus and the base Acc of the weapon is either 0, for no scope, which makes Precision Aiming pointless, or the weapon Acc, which is almost always greater than any available scope bonus. However, the description of Deadeye doesn't say you don't need a scope.

IMHO, the best bet is to assume that there's a mistake in the phrasing of Precision Aiming, and it should be something like:

It requires a scope and (unless you have Deadeye, p38) at least two of somewhere to brace, ballistic tables tailored to the weapon and ammunition, a wind gauge, or a trained spotter.

However, those more knowledgeable than me will probably be along in a while.

[acrosome]

I'm conflicted. Clearly that's a bug in RAW. But there most certainly is such a thing as the use of Precision Aiming with iron sights. One need only google the Wimbledon Cup or the Creedmoor matches- those were 1000 yard competitions, though granted firing at an SM+1 target. Still, they used iron sights in the early days (and some very weird firing positions). Google "Lyman sights" for images of the sights- they can be rather delicate.

Maybe a better mechanism would be instead of specifying a "scope" substitute "precision sight" instead:

It requires a scope or precision sight and (unless you have Deadeye, p38) at least two of somewhere to brace, ballistic tables tailored to the weapon and ammunition, a wind gauge, or a trained spotter.

Then the Precision Aiming bonus is limited to the Acc bonus of the scope or precision sight, and not base Acc. Essentially, any gun modified to improve Acc- i.e Fine (Accurate) or Very Fine (Accurate)- could be assumed to have a precision sight, good for whatever bonus to Acc is specified, just like a scope.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by acrosome

Then the Precision Aiming bonus is limited to the Acc bonus of the scope or precision sight, and not base Acc. Essentially, any gun modified to improve Acc- i.e Fine (Accurate) or Very Fine (Accurate)- could be assumed to have a precision sight, good for whatever bonus to Acc is specified, just like a scope.

I like that. FWIW, I intended for Precision Aiming to work with Creedmoor matches, or the buffalo hunters at Adobe Walls.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by safisher

I like that. FWIW, I intended for Precision Aiming to work with Creedmoor matches, or the buffalo hunters at Adobe Walls.

The playtest had a long discussion about Precision Aiming without scopes, but ultimately, there wasn't space for the solution I favoured.

Note that there is nothing unrealistic about achieving greater precision with extremely precise micrometer adjustable sigths than you can get with some scopes. Realistically, there are plenty of scopes that have high magnification without necessarily allowing accurate shot placement at 1,500 yards.