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Old 06-14-2021, 02:21 PM   #161
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
GM: "so your character is Wealthy and makes $10,000 per month."
[nasally voice]technically he's making $13k and spending part of that on cost of living[/nasally voice]

I'll roll with base pay at TL8 is $2000 because it makes the math simpler too.
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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Face-Player (FP): "I figure he makes around what HP's character does, $10,000 per month."

...

FP: "Oh, no, my character is active with collecting rent and hiring contractors to fix problems and all that. I mean, it's just 5 hours a week, but it's a job."
That's where I'd return with: "Well then you're making effectively making $80,000/month at 40 hours a week but only working an eighth of that amount. So you're really somewhere between Very Wealthy and Filthy Rich. No, that's not technically rules as written but it is compliant with other works like THS: Changing Times [page 37]. Do you want a tough Very Wealthy job or an easy Filthy Rich job?"

Yeah, I know it's a bit ridiculous that you need a setting book to allow "Oh no, jobs where you work less but get paid the same are technically higher wealth."
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Old 06-14-2021, 02:37 PM   #162
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
...I don't even know what you think you're answering here, none of this connects to anything I wrote.
You wrote: "No part of which rectifies the point that you've invented a job that's in all respects better than other jobs at its Wealth level." But I had not specified anything to do with wealth level for the job, and I provided no setting information which could give you a basis to compare it to other jobs, so your assertion that I invented a better job than others had no basis for you to draw such a conclusion.

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The one I specified clearly in other posts: you're inventing a superjob.
I asserted that it's possible for some jobs to be better than others and that it's up to the GM to make those calls.

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It doesn't take up your time and as a bonus it implies capital ownership that can potentially be exploited for other purposes.
Many jobs described for GURPS settings imply capital ownership or access while others do not. I don't see your basis for objecting to that.
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Old 06-14-2021, 02:42 PM   #163
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I don't see a rules problem.

I do see a potential player complaint about differential treatment but that's up to the GM to resolve or not.

Personally, if I were the GM, I would seek a more egalitarian treatment by either subsuming the lower hour job into a higher Wealth category (which would cost character points), or I would impose greater time requirements than the FP imagined.
I don't care how the problem is defined, your (implicit) suggestion of creating a super-job is a problem. You stated you didn't see one, so I explained what the problem was. Simple as that.
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Old 06-14-2021, 02:50 PM   #164
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I don't care how the problem is defined, your (implicit) suggestion of creating a super-job is a problem.
Ulzgoroth posited some unnamed "issues", I asked him/her what issues.

You then devised a hypothetical and asked me if I saw a problem with it. I answered that question with precision as between a rules problem and an potential interpersonal games table problem. If you don't care about the answers, perhaps you oughtn't waste time asking questoins.

BTW, I did not 'create a super-job', I merely pointed out that a Job could be used to model an income that is not an II and that no rules compelled a particular quantity of hours to be spent.
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Old 06-14-2021, 02:54 PM   #165
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
BTW, I did not 'create a super-job', I merely pointed out that a Job could be used to model an income that is not an II and that no rules compelled a particular quantity of hours to be spent.
Basic 293 defines a full-time job as 8 hours/day, though it doesn't say how many days per month that is (stuff elsewhere assumes 21).
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Old 06-14-2021, 03:12 PM   #166
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Basic 293 defines a full-time job as 8 hours/day, though it doesn't say how many days per month that is (stuff elsewhere assumes 21).
Can you provide a quote for that? The only thing I can see sort of like that is about learning on the job and actually says:

"You may claim a maximum of eight hours on the job per day (four hours per day at a part-time job). Your actual working hours may exceed this, but fatigue limits learning to this level."

That's clearly about how much learning you can do in a day on the job, and sets a maximum. It doesn't define a required amount of time for a Job itself.

If B293 purported to define actual Job hours it would contradict the statement under Jobs on B516: "The GM should give hours,
risks, guild or union affiliations, etc."
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Old 06-14-2021, 03:14 PM   #167
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Can you provide a quote for that? The only thing I can see sort of like that is about learning on the job and actually says:

"You may claim a maximum of eight hours on the job per day (four hours per day at a part-time job). Your actual working hours may exceed this, but fatigue limits learning to this level."
The key phrase is actually: "The GM should limit self-teaching to 12 hours per day or eight hours/day for those with part-time jobs, only four hours/day for those with full-time jobs"
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Old 06-14-2021, 03:14 PM   #168
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
Sure, you could use formulas or excel to give you the present value of a regular payment given an interest rate over either an estimated lifetime duration or perpetuity, and assess the risk factor, taxes and fees, ...
I'd really rather not, and besides, the number it gives is pretty colossal,

Quote:
II imho is firmly in the "fast and easy" ruleset "I want to have cash every month without doing anything, and I don't care what is hidden behind the curtain."
For me, the only metric for "how much II can I purchase in play" is "How much cp do you have".
To quote the rules "If your income derives from investments, you need not specify their value" (basic p26)
The problem is, because the investments are being made in-play, out of a known amount of money, we really do need to know what a decent amount is, and even with rather high rates of return it's very large, especially at high wealth and TLs.

For example, TL10 and Filthy Rich means $5M starting wealth and $50K/month per level of II. That's $600K/year and at a 12% rate of return after inflation (and taxes, the way GURPS treats things) that means $5M in investments.

One reason we really need to know how much it will cost is that the character intends to rebuild their fortune and reclaim Multimillionaire status. They currently have a little over $30M, and need $20M more.

That brings up another problem - they clearly should invest now, pay their points, and get a free increase in come when their Wealth goes back up, because if they wait until they're a Multimillionaire each level of II will cost $50M.

There's just no way handwaving this away will make any of my players happy. The discrepancies are just too great.
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Old 06-14-2021, 03:22 PM   #169
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The key phrase is actually: "The GM should limit self-teaching to 12 hours per day or eight hours/day for those with part-time jobs, only four hours/day for those with full-time jobs"
Also, it mentions learning on the job as being good for no more than 2-3 points a year, which corresponds to 30-45 hours a week.
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Old 06-14-2021, 03:31 PM   #170
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Default Re: Independent Income at later TL stages

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The key phrase is actually: "The GM should limit self-teaching to 12 hours per day – or eight hours/day for those with part-time jobs, only four hours/day for those with full-time jobs"
Since that is talking about productive learning capacity, I can't see how it leads you to conclude that the rules define a job as having a minimum requirement, particularly in contrast with the clear statement on B516.
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