Gun Ammo Confusion

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Geeky Meerkat

Quiet clearly as it says the exact benefits depend on the weapon and that it's at least one second, that they intend it to mean that it can be made even faster than 1 second through higher skill levels depending on the weapon being reloaded.

No, I wouldn't say that. What fast-draw does is eliminate an action that is otherwise used to draw and ready the item, in this case ammo. That normally takes 1s, which can be reduced to 0s but no further. Fast-draw will give more than 1s of bonus if you have to load loose ammo into a six-shooter or something similar, because then you're spending multiple seconds readying ammo. If will also speed loading ammo into a clip, though this is rarely important.

[Geeky Meerkat]

Originally Posted by Anthony

No, I wouldn't say that. What fast-draw does is eliminate an action that is otherwise used to draw and ready the item, in this case ammo. That normally takes 1s, which can be reduced to 0s but no further. Fast-draw will give more than 1s of bonus if you have to load loose ammo into a six-shooter or something similar, because then you're spending multiple seconds readying ammo. If will also speed loading ammo into a clip, though this is rarely important.

That doesn't even make sense for the way the rules are written or for how speed reloads actually work IRL The game explicitly says that fast-draw (ammo) is what effects reload time. It isn't just talking about the action of pulling your ammo out of the pouch you have it in, but also the act of getting that ammo to where it needs to be. It also says at least one second, meaning you can shave off more time with skill.

With many of the modern weapons in game their reload time is 3, so on a normal success at fast-draw it would reduce the reload time to 2. But even that's still extremely slow when you think about it.

But if we did it your way and said that the individual reloads can have 1 second off reload times for each round, but mags can only have 1 second off for the whole thing, then suddenly we have cross bows as being one of the most powerful weapons.

Why is that? Well if we get a "Goat's Foot" for the Crossbow then each shot only takes 1 second ready maneuver. Without the fast draw (ammo) skill that means you would fire one round then the next reload and then the next fire again. With fast draw (ammo) though in place it's effectively put it down to each round is fire because you are reloading in the same round that you fired.

In my book that's fine as each fast draw is a skill roll. But if this is fine then it seems to me that a rifle where the only thing I need to do to get it working again is to slap a magazine into place and press a button could be done just as fast with training. And the rules account for that.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Geeky Meerkat

It also says at least one second, meaning you can shave off more time with skill.

No, 'at least one second' means that it's more than 1 second for some weapons. Fast-draw is never variable effect for a given weapon.

[Witigis]

Originally Posted by Geeky Meerkat

So what would happen in a fast action combat situation if you wanted to reduce delay as much as you could:
Move 0: 15 rounds in weapon
Move 1: Fire three shots at 1st guy. 12 rounds in weapon.
Move 2: Fire three shots at 2nd guy. 9 rounds in weapon.
Move 3: Fire three shots at 3rd guy. 6 rounds in weapon.
Move 4: Fire three shots at 4th guy. Free hand grabs new mag. 3 rounds in weapon.
Move 5: Fire two shots at 5th guy. Press release for old mag. 1 round left in weapon.
Move 6: Put new mag in gun. Take final shot at 5th guy. 15 rounds in gun. (or if 5th guy doesn't need anymore hits you could take 3 shots on 6th guy and have 13 rounds in the gun.)

Or you could do it this way:
Move 5: Fire 3 shots at 5th guy. Press release for old mag. 0 rounds left in weapon.
Move 6: Put new mag in gun. Ready weapon. No shots this move. 15 rounds in gun.

And lastly there is this way:
Move 3: Fire three shots at 3rd guy. Free hand grabs new mag. 6 rounds in weapon.
Move 4: Fire three shots at 4th guy. Press release for old mag. 1 rounds in weapon. 2 rounds left in mag
Move 5: Put new mag in gun. Fire three shots at 5th guy. 13 rounds in gun.

Note with this last way you are effectively throwing away 2 rounds to reduce reload speed to effectively nothing. In a fight in a normal situation, you would be able to get those rounds back after combat. But if you are say fighting in a sewer or the like you are basically dropping ammo in the water.

Well, no offense meant, but I see a huge problem with your arguments:
What you call a move in your course of action above is in some cases TWO different action within the rules as I understand them.
So, I see the different combat actions like this:
1) Start of combat: 15 rounds in weapon
2) Action one: Step and attack: Fire three shots at 1st guy. (12 rounds in weapon.)
3) Action two: Step and attack: Fire three shots at 2nd guy. (9 rounds in weapon.)
4) Action three: Step and attack: Fire three shots at 3rd guy. (6 rounds in weapon.)
5) Action four: Step and attack: Fire three shots at 4th guy. (3 rounds in weapon.)
6) Action five: Step and ready: Grab new mag. (Without Fast-Draw, that is.)
7) Action six: Step and ready: Release old mag.
8) Action seven: Step and ready: Put new mag in gun.
9) Action eight: Step and ready: Ready a weapon by putting new round in chamber.
10) Action nine: Step and attack (whoever you want).
You cannot take a Step and ready-maneuver and a Step and attack maneuver in one combat action.
If you use fast draw, action five will happen together with action six. All other actions will have to remain as they are.
In this sequence, if you are surprised by an enemy after action five, you still have 3 rounds left in your gun and may chose a step and attack as action six, which will leave you then with an empty gun. Mind, I wouldn´t allow you a bonus for bracing (two-handed stance), because you hold the new mag in your off-hand...
If an enemy surprises you after action six, you are only left with the one round in the chamber, because the old mag is out of the gun and the new one not yet inserted....

[Witigis]

And I just looked up Tactical shooting, and there it is, plainly stated (p.20):
"For modern firearms with detachable magazines, the fastest
reloads involve simply ejecting the empty magazine, retrieving a
fresh one, inserting the newmagazine, and readying the weapon
(releasing or retracting the slide or drawing back the charging
handle). This takes four Ready maneuvers. Familiarity (p. B169)
with the weapon or Lightning Fingers (p. 39) lets you insert and
ready at the same time, reducing time by one second. A successful
Fast-Draw (Ammo) roll also reduces it by a second. Quick
Reload (p. 39) can speed this up even further, to a free action!"

On the above, that means:
Familiarity makes action seven and eight ONE action instead of two.
Fast Draw (ammo) makes action five unnecessary, and combine it with the perk Quick Reload (Detachable Magazine) to make the whole reloading action sequence with an detachable magazine a free action, i.e. NO reloading action remains instead of four...

Other than this, you may refer to High-Tech, p.86 and 87 for the different benefits of Fast-Draw on various types of firearms.

[Geeky Meerkat]

Originally Posted by lexington

I'm surprised Basic Set includes it without explanation to be honest, High-Tech does bring it up.

Just looked up High-Tech as it wasn't something I was using as a source until just now. Given that High-Tech does explicitly say what these numbers mean, I can see that you are correct Anthony.

I do find it odd that not only was numbers like 15+1 poorly explained, but that speed reloading was likewise poorly explained in the basic set.

Having read the High-Tech rules now, I do find that Witigis's action order makes sense. I think the thing that bothers me the most is that High-Tech explicitly spells out what is being done during each of the 3 seconds of the reload but it lists it in the order of "eject the empty magazine, one to retrieve a fresh one, and one to insert it." and that fast draw reduces this set of actions down to 2 seconds.

It just bothers me that High-Tech actually lists the actions taken during the 3 seconds in the wrong order, and that one of the ways to IRL to reduce opportunity for the enemy to fire on you without you being able to fire back is to time your reloads properly.

There is absolutely no way I would shoot completely dry and only then start the process of reloading. I think the problem is Witigis's action 5. In my mind I should be able to shoot my gun with my right hand while getting the new mag with my left hand. As Witigis says I would then take the penalty for not having the two handed stance, but at least I could keep firing while getting out that magazine.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Geeky Meerkat

For both pistol and rifle there are 3 basic things you need to do before you can fire. (As a quick note here, I am aware that a rifle uses magazines and a pistol uses clips, but I'll just be using the term magazine or mag from here on out.)

Not really:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RYwUPr35rL...+vs+-+Clip.jpg
http://www.minutemanreview.com/2008/...n-firearm.html
http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Cli...10_1464120.jpg

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Geeky Meerkat

It just bothers me that High-Tech actually lists the actions taken during the 3 seconds in the wrong order.

It's not really 'wrong', it's just not 'right' either. You can actually ready the magazine at any point you want as long as it's before insertion, it's just that it takes up a hand so you don't do it if you want to use that hand for something else.

[Witigis]

Originally Posted by Geeky Meerkat

I think the problem is Witigis's action 5. In my mind I should be able to shoot my gun with my right hand while getting the new mag with my left hand. As Witigis says I would then take the penalty for not having the two handed stance, but at least I could keep firing while getting out that magazine.

Hmmm, let me think about this:

1) If you are untrained (i.e. not having Fast-Draw (Ammo)), you need to look down to your belt or pouch or wherever you keep your spare magazines, and then get them out of the pouch or magazine holder. In other words, retrieving your ammo diverts your attention from being able to shoot. That is what the step-and-ready maneuver means IMHO.

2) On the other hand, if you are trained (i.e. having Fast-Draw (Ammo)), you do not necessarily need to divert your attention (if you roll your skill successfully). I don´t see a difference if the fast-drawing of the magazine actually happens simultaneously with action four, or with action six, though I would always assume (for simplicity mostly) it to happen on action six (in the above mentioned sequence). It could also be combined with Move, Change Posture or similar maneuvers, if that makes sense.

But if the fast-drawing of the magazine happens to be not a part of a continuous reloading action, this would make at least one additional skill roll necessary to gain all of the benefits of Quick Reload.
For example, the hero moves into the room and simultaneously draws a spare magazine (Fast-Draw roll). Then a firefight erupts (no bonus for bracing...), then the hero starts to reload his gun. Assuming he has the perk Quick Reload, I would ask him the roll a second time for Fast-Draw, because he actually wants to use this skill a second time. If he had decided to draw the magazine as a part of the whole reload action, I would ask only for one skill roll!
Nevertheless, without the relevant skill in Fast-Draw, you cannot combine retrieving the magazine with any other maneuver!

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Witigis

: 15 rounds in weapon
2) Action one: Step and attack: Fire three shots at 1st guy. (12 rounds in weapon.)
3) Action two: Step and attack: Fire three shots at 2nd guy. (9 rounds in weapon.)
4) Action three: Step and attack: Fire three shots at 3rd guy. (6 rounds in weapon.)
5) Action four: Step and attack: Fire three shots at 4th guy. (3 rounds in weapon.)
6) Action five: Step and ready: Grab new mag. (Without Fast-Draw, that is.)
7) Action six: Step and ready: Release old mag.
8) Action seven: Step and ready: Put new mag in gun.
9) Action eight: Step and ready: Ready a weapon by putting new round in chamber.
10) Action nine: Step and attack (whoever you want).
....

Your number 9) Action 8 is generally inaccurate. When you stopped firing at Action 4 you still had 3 rounds in the gun. For the automatically loading firearms that I know of that takes the form of 1 round in the chamber and 2 in the magazine. When you release the old mag only 2 rounds go with it. You still have one in the chamber.