[HT] Small Calibre firepower

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by safisher

In certain types of zombie hunting situations, however, where only brain hits count, its perfectly useful

I missed this before my last reply. For a typical zombie-apocalypse where only brain-hits count, a good semi-auto .22LR rifle is a close second for my pick as an ideal weapon. It falls behind a light .223 semi-auto only due to that caliber's greater range and more reliable penetration of the skull. Even then, the .22 has a lot going for it. It's much quieter (And it's easier to make a crude but effective home-made suppressor for), you can pack a lot more ammo (A big deal if you're in a post-apocalyptic scenario where you might not find much ammo), and the ammo can be found almost anywhere. I'd be quite happy with a Ruger 10/22 and a few (Though preferably several) 30-round (Or so) mags. A few pounds of ammo would last me a long time.

As iconic as they are, I rate shotguns very low on the list of weapons for such a situation. In fact, they'd probably be the least-ideal, barring weapons such as single-shot muzzle-loaders. Maybe if the fastest-firing weapon you had is a bolt-action and you're expecting an indoor encounter, but even that's not much of a lead.

[Mr Frost]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Yes, but the pi- 0.5 wounding mod does not have any effect when you shoot the vitals, which give 3x wounding to all piercing types

Which is a bit unrealistic and many house-rule so all multipliers and divisors apply . A 12 gauge solid to the heart or brain should do more damage than a .223 etc .

[LokRobster]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

Have crowbar, need crossbow, Scout rifle, Glock 22 and Dang, what was that 14 round pump action shotgun called?

The Kel Tec KSG (the "SG" being Shot Gun) - the Stormtrooper blaster-looking 14 shot pump. Barely above current legal federal laws, with an 18.25" barrel and a 26.5" overall length. It'd be fun to load one tube with 00 buckshot and the other with slugs. Select your doom as needed.

In other news, ANY new gun control law passed in the US that touches shotguns will ban this puppy in before you can say 'clay pigeon'...

because it's cool.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

As iconic as they are, I rate shotguns very low on the list of weapons for such a situation. In fact, they'd probably be the least-ideal, barring weapons such as single-shot muzzle-loaders. Maybe if the fastest-firing weapon you had is a bolt-action and you're expecting an indoor encounter, but even that's not much of a lead.

Shotguns with OO buck are the only civilian legal weapons with common ammo that will give you a +2 to hit.

When you're constantly trying to compensate for a -7 to hit the Skull (which is still a -3 even with maxed out TA) plusses to hit are nice.

It would also be useful for when zombies stick limbs through doors that are trying to close and similar situations. A machete or axe might (or might not) sever the limb but the shotgun would break all the bones. Good for when the zombies have Independent Body Parts too.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Shotguns with OO buck are the only civilian legal weapons with common ammo that will give you a +2 to hit.

If I'm dealing with shamblers, I'd rather have even a bolt-action rifle than a shotgun. The higher accuracy (+2, if not more) makes up the difference so long as you have time to aim (And if they're shamblers, you have time to aim), it's a more versatile weapon, and I can pack a lot more ammo for it. A shotgun would only compete with it for shots that you don't have time to aim with. The only time I'd take a shotgun over even a bolt-action would be if I'm going into a very close-quarters environment (Such as a house) where I'm expecting to engage in combat with multiple zombies in rapid succession, and frankly, I'd much rather avoid such a suicidal endeavor.

But really, I'd rather go for a light semi-auto, which also have the higher accuracy, as well as much higher ammo capacity, quicker re-fire rate, and even lighter ammo.

Shotguns rank as an emergency backup weapon in such a situation, to me, where they compete with pistols. Unfortunately for shotguns, pistols are significantly lighter and more compact (Useful stats for an emergency backup weapon), carry more ammo, have much lighter ammo, and are much quicker to reload. Their lack of accuracy is their only significant downside in comparison, but a miss with a pistol is less punishing than a miss with a shotgun.

[apoc527]

Originally Posted by Mr Frost

Which is a bit unrealistic and many house-rule so all multipliers and divisors apply . A 12 gauge solid to the heart or brain should do more damage than a .223 etc .

How common is this house rule? I can go either way on this. I actually think a bullet to the heart is a bullet to the heart, and size is perhaps less important than overall penetration/energy (represented by the dice). Thus, I think the x3 is fair regardless of projectile size.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by apoc527

How common is this house rule?

I doubt anyone knows, but it's quite possible to "use" it by mistake, under the impression that it's RAW, with a little casual misreading. I did for a while.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by apoc527

How common is this house rule? I can go either way on this. I actually think a bullet to the heart is a bullet to the heart, and size is perhaps less important than overall penetration/energy (represented by the dice). Thus, I think the x3 is fair regardless of projectile size.

Even with bullets to the heart it's exact placement (i.e left ventricle) that matters more than size. However, the bigger the hole the more likely that you've compromised the left ventricle.

Wounds to other parts of the heart are still quite likely to be eventually fatal but that's the bleeding rules. You want to drop someone faster than bleeding out will explain you need to interrupt the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain.

This of course is an unplayable level of complexity but just because something is simpler doesn't mean it's right. Bigger holes are worse than smaller holes and there's no real way around that.

Small caliber bullets embedded in the brain are actually somewhat survivable. Even though fatalities still outnumber survivals there are a significant number of persons who have survived such wounds. P++ not so much.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by apoc527

I actually think a bullet to the heart is a bullet to the heart, and size is perhaps less important than overall penetration/energy (represented by the dice).

In most cases, I would consider this true. The studies I recall on handgun cartridges put penetration depth in flesh as having the highest correlation to one-shot stops. This was because higher-penetrating rounds were more likely to punch through the body far enough to score the vital CNS hits that are the only guarantee of an immediate stop, and were more likely to penetrate deep enough to hit other vital structures that could lead to rapid incapacitation. HP rounds widen the wound channel slightly, but also don't penetrate as deeply. This can make a good difference if the round hits less-vital areas where bleeding is the primary factor in death, but it doesn't make much difference at all if the round actually hits something vital.

This probably breaks down once you get to particularly high-energy attacks that spend so little of that energy inside the body before exiting, but those are already dealing so much damage that it's kind of academic. The blowthrough rules already take care of some of that, anyway.

So yeah, while some people use that houserule, I don't. With the limited options we have (Short of making an even more complex system), I think what we have is probably the closest to realistic in the broadest number of situations.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Small caliber bullets embedded in the brain are actually somewhat survivable. Even though fatalities still outnumber survivals there are a significant number of persons who have survived such wounds. P++ not so much.

This is again likely down to energy, not the size of piercing. Pi++ weapons tend to be high base-damage, which are of course going to make them nasty on brain hits. Most of the small-caliber bullets failing to kill after penetrating the brain are low-energy projectiles like .22LR, and even those tend to be quite deadly. Slightly different topic, but I should probably note that there are also examples of pi++ weapons (Such as .45 HP) glancing off the skull because they didn't penetrate, while much smaller and more energetic but pi (no-plus) would have pretty much emptied out the skull.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by apoc527

How common is this house rule?

I've never even heard of it. It's not in any of the Alternate GURPS articles, or on either Tbone's or PK's websites. It didn't come up in the Tactical Shooting playtest. I don't do it that way, and have never even considered it.