05-31-2023, 11:12 PM | #21 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
I would. It's all a numbers game: if a tool that lasts twice as long costs three times as much, you might as well use the cheaper one. In any case, if it's not designed as a weapon it's unlikely to perform well as a weapon even if not cheap.
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05-31-2023, 11:14 PM | #22 |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
The stresses on a weapon are different than the stresses on most tools, and a lot of historical axes are of soft iron which strongly suggests Cheap Quality in GURPS. Not sure about iron miners' picks.
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06-01-2023, 03:39 AM | #23 | |
Join Date: Jun 2022
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
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What I would strongly consider is giving the foe a bonus to their defenses because it's almost (not quite, but almost) like a Telegraphic Attack. It's a slower attack and follow-through, maybe not a full +2, but +1 almost feels right. And of course they're Parry U. You either go defensive, or you attack, there is no "attack and parry" with a mattock. Unless you've choked it up in a defensive grip. |
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06-01-2023, 09:12 AM | #24 | ||
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
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That said, as others have noted, a lot of even very high-quality tools aren't going to hold up well in combat, because that's not what they're designed for. Woodcutting axe blades are typically thinner and wider than combat axe blades, for example, and that's going to make the former dull, chip, and break more readily when striking metal (like Parrying weapons, the rims of shields, or armor), being twisted at unusual angles (if the target falls between being struck and the blade being pulled out), etc. Woodcutting axes also tend to have relatively-light hafts, while combat axes are going to have thick and/or reinforced hafts, so the former's hafts aren't going to be as rugged either. Other tools are going to be in similar boats - most tools aren't designed to be used and abused in the way they will be in combat. At GURPS levels of resolution, simply treating most tools as Cheap (regardless of their quality and ruggedness as a tool) in combat is likely to be appropriate.
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06-02-2023, 04:30 AM | #25 | ||
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mannheim, Baden
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
I can see arguments both in favour of and against Cheap (Materials) quality, but I went with Pursuivant in the write-up and only used Cheaply Balanced, which seems certain. Unfortunately real-life quality is quite a bit harder to judge than its GURPS equivalent, but I can certainly see the point about modern big-box hardware store stuff possibly being cheap.
I generally agree on most tools used for combat being treated as cheap like Varyon says, but I'm not sure about the pickaxe. These things are made to strike stone - armour shouldn't be a problem. Would be more of a thing if parries would crop up more often, but with a U parry and a double-dagger that's not going to be much. Quote:
Basically there are three options:
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I think the axe should probably do the regular purpose-built weapon minus one damage, so we'd be back at sw+3. Should the adze (which is usually not a full-sized one) do the same in crushing? It does not seem very optimised for that, but it does deliver a lot of power in a small cross-section. I like Varyon's suggestion of it causing bleeding and in controlled conditions cutting, but I really don't know about damage and such. However, looking at properly-sized adze blades, I am tempted to just call it a wash and treat those as axe blades too. Especially with a -2 skill penalty this feels too fine a distinction for GURPS.
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06-03-2023, 03:08 PM | #26 | |
Join Date: Jun 2022
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
Consider this yoinked.
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In fact, I'm very likely to treat a mattock* as a two-handed maul with an impaling head opposite... and then add Predictable. * That'd be the pick-adze combo. For an actual axe head, go with cutting, for the "tiller" option... hmmm... impaling, -i damage, +1 to hit? It's like a shorter, 'thicker' trident head. Should also be able to 'strike to disarm' without the penalty for being a fencing weapon.† † And no, I'm not getting into my rant about how terrible I think that rule is. Nope. |
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06-03-2023, 11:19 PM | #27 | |
Join Date: Apr 2013
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
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"Most axes, both in period illustrations and extant artifact, that fall under the description of Danish axe possess type L or type M heads according to the Petersen axe typology.[1] Both types consist of a wide, thin blade, with pronounced "horns" at both the toe and heel of the bit. " -Wikipedia |
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06-03-2023, 11:26 PM | #28 | |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
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The net effect is that cheap (balance) is probably more appropriate, because even if the wood axe is made of cheaper metal, it's not going to be easier to break (it might be easier to cut through the haft, though). |
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06-04-2023, 06:01 PM | #29 |
Join Date: Jun 2022
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
Unlikely. Unless the weaponized axe haft has a metal or leather sheathing, it's actually thinner than an wood chopping axe. And, wood splitters will often wrap leather or cord lacing around the haft under the head and glue it on as extra protection, making it just that little bit harder to chop into the haft (it protects from splitting the haft when you accidentally bang it on split logs when the split).
I made s boiled leather haft cover for my wood axe... no real good reason other than it was an experiment and I could. It's probably no better than a decent wrapped and glued down cord/leather strapping. Harder to do field repairs on certainly (not that I've ever had to, but I don't split logs, just have to chop down the occasional tree for someone, and even then I have chainsaws for that now - and I'm old and my back ain't as up for a day of chopping down trees as it was twenty years ago). |
06-04-2023, 11:04 PM | #30 | |
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Re: [Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe
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The likely failure point for a pickaxe, etc. turned into a weapon is the eye (where the head and haft join). When that failure occurs you end up with Round Mace in-hand and a 5+ lb. missile whizzing in a random direction. Getting to that point requires a lot of tool abuse; far more than you'd rack up in a single melee combat. But for balance, penalties to hit, damage modifiers, etc. pickaxes and similar tools are effectively Cheap. With an hour or so of work in a blacksmith's or bladesmith's shop, a Good-Quality tool could easily be turned into a Good-Quality weapon. |
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Tags |
low-tech, tool, weapon |
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