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Old 05-12-2013, 12:19 PM   #21
Armorlord
 
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Default Re: Elephant Guns, ST and Rcl

Hello. Been away from the boards for awhile (Last visited: 03-06-2011 at 04:35 AM -Yikes), was going to start a new thread for a question, but this one turned up in my searches for similar, so I thought I'd try riding on this one's coattails.

Dormant portion of a GURPS campaign is kicking back up again after a couple years, and when we had last left off I had a character switching to a absurdly tooled up safari rifle. Unfortunately, it seems that both myself and the GM cannot find any of our notes regarding the stats we were working together for the weapon, and by this point I think I have forgotten more than I knew at the time.

We were looking at the R93 Duo/S2 Safari as a design inspiration for the weapon: Double barreled with a pull-action magazine feed in a 'big game' caliber, in the Nitro .700 or Weatherby Magnum range. If I recall correctly we were concerned the 577 T-Rex would be too much gun for the character.

Googled up Cole's Spreadsheet mentioned at the beginning of the thread, not certain it is displaying correctly in Open Office, but I'll try poking around and see if I can pull some numbers together, but any help would be appreciated.

One other thing that came up when we started up spontaneously last night was a question regarding the firing of both barrels at once on a double barreled weapon. We were using the H&H as a quick stand-in for it, but it seemed odd to apply the full recoil number to a double shot with both going off at once in the same direction. Thinking about it as I type this, it occurs to me the ST requirement to fire such accurately should be higher. I feel like I've seen a rule for that before, but no one could recall where off-hand.

Any help at all in these areas would be greatly appreciated, thank you for taking the time to read this.
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Last edited by Armorlord; 05-12-2013 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:46 PM   #22
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Default Re: Elephant Guns, ST and Rcl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armorlord View Post
We were looking at the R93 Duo/S2 Safari as a design inspiration for the weapon: Double barreled with a pull-action magazine feed in a 'big game' caliber, in the Nitro .700 or Weatherby Magnum range.
Another good basis for this kind of artillery is the Mannlicher-Schönauer Grosswildbüchse, in 12.7x70mmRB Schuler (High-Tech: Pulp Guns 2, p13). Its recoil is huge, but this doesn't matter with a RoF 1 gun, and it does 5dx2pi+. The one in the book is only Acc 4, but is also quite low-cost.

Playing in a UK-based game set in the 1940s, I took note of this passage in the description: "Similar guns with Mauser actions were soon made in Britain, where the cartridge was renamed the .500 Jeffrey." and a bit of research on http://www.gunsinternational.com/ for guns in .500 Jeffrey gave me some weights and modern-day prices. Here's my best guess at a specification:

W. Jeffrey & Son Commercial Mauser, .500 Jeffery
Dmg 5dx2pi+
Acc 5
Range 900/3600
Wt 11.7/0.7
RoF 1
Shots 5+1(3)
ST 12, 2 hands
Bulk -6
Rcl 7
Cost $5000
LC3
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:56 PM   #23
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Default Re: Elephant Guns, ST and Rcl

Folks, if you haven't already, read L. Sprague de Camp's A Gun for Dinosaur. Would make a fun GURPS one-off, I imagine.
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Old 05-13-2013, 11:35 AM   #24
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Default Re: Elephant Guns, ST and Rcl

Well, we are looking at:

TL 8 going on 9 construction. Very Fine. Ruggedized. No inlays or scroll work.
Kickstop, recoil pad, and any other non-fragile gimmicks we can come up with.
Twin barrel, with option for single or double fire.
Small magazine, loaded by a pull action (ala the Duo/Safari). Downside to the RL example of the mechanism is both are loaded at the same time, whether you've fired both or not.
Large big game caliber. Characters were looking for the 'stopping power' vs large wild beasts (even if GURPS caps at pi++), and put some fear into any unfriendly persons if need be.
Effective gun-firing strength of the main person using it is currently at 16, and is not adverse to trying to fire things he really shouldn't.
Typically seeing use in a mountainous jungle environment, so less need for incredible range (and they have more practical guns for that), but accuracy is still important.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:10 PM   #25
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Default Re: Elephant Guns, ST and Rcl

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Originally Posted by Armorlord View Post
Well, we are looking at:
<stuff>

RL munchkins have cobbled together semi-auto safari rifles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBh9J1YZzZY
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:35 PM   #26
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Default Re: Elephant Guns, ST and Rcl

Armorlord:

Re - firing both barrels from a safari double barrel rifle. Here's a few reasons why it's a bad idea.

Recoil - Firing two high power rounds will hurt you - a broken collar bone is not out of the question. Guns like the H&H .600 NE are painful to fire, and usually only used when the primary smaller gun has failed to hit it's mark. The German 13x92mm rifle had a reputation for doing so when fired from the prone position. I would probably make players roll vs HT with the margin of failure = damage.
I would actually argue that guns with recoil of 6 or 7 should become unready after firing - If fired with the correct technique [see about 3:00 in]. If not the gun is likely to be dropped.

Lock time - The change of pulling both triggers so the rounds go off at the same time is improbable. You would need to be able to time it within milliseconds for the bullets to have any chance of hitting the same target.
In reality the second shot would most likely end up in the next county.

No advantage to do so - Even if you design a gun to fire two bullets at once and If you hit the target you aimed for [skull, vitals etc...] with an appropriate bullet you either hit [and the second bullet is over kill] or you miss with twice the ammo. Rcl 7 is not friendly for multiple hits.

Building a TL8/9 gun based on the R93 - why bother? Defiantly cool munchkin value, but for real world use - not so useful. By late TL8/9 I imaging the only large animal hunting will be paid safari culls in parks with a guide. A two or three shot rifle is adequate for this use, with a guide to back you up in case of trouble. I don't really see an advantage to a double barrel magazine fed rifle... if you going into that much danger take a semi-auto .50 bmg.
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:11 AM   #27
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Default Re: Elephant Guns, ST and Rcl

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Originally Posted by Green-Neck View Post
Here's a few reasons why it's a bad idea.
Oh, we are well aware, out of characterly, that it is absurd, wasteful, and that there are better options, particularly within the GURPS ruleset.
It is the characters equivalent to Sir Baker's Baby that went on to rest on the mantle with an air of mystique after a Indiana-Jones-esque life of rattling around dangerous jungles. Now folks have gone and gotten his spine repaired, and since his daughter is grown up, he's grabbing it off the mantle and we've got to stat the monstrosity.
If we were talking about practicality or power, there's the high-power sniper rifle he was going to war with from his wheelchair previously, or the Barret with .50 Raufoss rounds, or any number other of things that would be available to him, like laser rifles, gyroc weapons and explosive guided projectiles, magically enhanced materials, etc. But the character would rather dust off Besty and visit to Bilit Island. Also, the gun has been in game for a long time now, just unused as a token of a previous life that would flip his wheelchair over, and valued around 150k in his homeworld's currency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green-Neck View Post
I would actually argue that guns with recoil of 6 or 7 should become unready after firing - If fired with the correct technique [see about 3:00 in]. If not the gun is likely to be dropped.
Looks more like folks rolling on the critical failure table, likely from not meeting the ST requirements of the weapon and not having enough skill to compensate, and one guy with more skill and probably a better ST.

As for handling multishot weapons, we gave up finding it and eyeballed it as half-again ST requirement for additional barrels firing at once last night, and were amused when, at least on the H&H, in typical GURPS fashion it came out to the same amount of penalty as hitting with the recoil number.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:17 AM   #28
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Default Re: Elephant Guns, ST and Rcl

@ Armorlord

Ahh yes - story context is everything. I tend to stat for realistic firearm games.

Just thinking aloud, at TL 9 he could probably get an AI to design any gun of the his choice, and a 3D printer could make it. I wonder how that would effect the price of items that we would currently consider rare [like an low production run rifle].

Also - there are rules in tactical shooting [p.14] for high speed shooting of weapons beyond their Rof, which would amount to -2 to hit and +1 Rcl for a double barrel rifle.
That's if you use the rules for pump and lever rifles... double barrel rifles are curiously absent. Personally it does not seem any less realistic to fire a double barrel rifle at Rof 2 when the rules allow a lever action 45-70 at Rof 4.
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