How do you adjudicate initiating HTH?

[Shostak]

So, what happens if one attempts HTH by way of the "Fast Method" and is repelled. Do they then get to make a charge attack during their action phase? It seems like they should, using your reasoning, but that doesn't seem fair to me.

I can only hope that Douglas Cole's eventual treatment of TFT's HTH rules clears this up.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Shostak

I can only hope that Douglas Cole's eventual treatment of TFT's HTH rules clears this up.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. :-)

[larsdangly]

Re. the fast method: it sounds like you are not forcing the attacker to stop when first engaged on the 'run up' to a slower opponent's front hex. Is that right? I don't do that, both because it violates one of the core concepts of engagement and grants an exceptional ability to force HTH without facing an attack, even when you charge someone from the front, even if they have a set pole weapon.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

- During the turn you attempt to initiate, if you succeed to engage in HTH, then both you and your foe drop to prone in the same hex, and you then get to attempt a HTH attack.

I go back and forth on this one. Option (o) strongly suggests this interpretation. The sentence, "Initiating HTH combat is considered an attack," suggests otherwise, since an attack is an action.

I still think that in RAW, this interpretation is more plausible than not. For now, I've decided against it in the case that one initiates as an action and not a move, because it makes initiating HTH a bit too easy. One-third of the time, you've wasted an action or, worse, taken a hit but two-thirds of the time, you succeed and not only take away all the advantages of that master fencer but get a free attack which is almost certain to put a hit on him.

To be fair, in any but a one-on-one battle, you've also taken yourself largely out of the fight and are prone and helpless, which is nothing to scoff at.

So, I do think you're correct about this point as a matter of RAW, though our opinion is in the minority. I regard my current interpretation a house rule.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Possibly the most unfortunate wording to occur anywhere in the rules is where SJ dropped in the line "Initiating HTH combat is considered an attack." The word "attack" must be taken informally, as if the sentence is just there to say "Initiating HTH combat is considered a hostile thing to do that will put your opponent in a real bad mood." It cannot be taken literally, as in it's your full action for your turn and it uses up any chance to otherwise attack on the same turn. Taken literally it immediately creates a contradiction with the use of option (b):[INDENT]"A disengaged figure picks option (b) to initiate HTH combat; he moves onto the enemy’s hex during movement and attacks during combat." (emphasis mine)

I certainly thought about the word "attack" being used informally as the sense you describe, but seems odd to think one has to say that. It's too obvious that initiating HTH is a hostile move to add a sentence saying so.

Casting a fireball is also a hostile move and no one needs a sentence pointing this out.

But on the one hand, you're right that this sentence adds confusion more than anything. Your interpretation has to re-read option (o) in the following way:

(o) ATTEMPT HAND-TO-HAND ATTACK. During the
movement phase, the figure stands still or shifts; when its
turn to attack comes, it moves onto the hex of any adjacent
enemy, and attempts to hit with bare hands or (if it was ready)
its dagger on the subsequent turn.

But of course that re-reading is implausible, since initiating HTH doesn't commit one to any particular action next turn. He could draw a dagger or disengage next turn if he wants.

Dammit, Lars, you knew this would happen. You just wanted to see if you could spark a thirty-seven page thread, didn't you?

[larsdangly]

I'm convinced that the phrase about initiating HTH being an attack was one of those ill-advised loose statements you find scattered through the text. Or it was a brief thought that ended up being inconsistent with everything else written on the subject but didn't get pruned in editing. Either way, I think taking it seriously ends up forcing you to reject several other much more concretely stated rules, and then you are off in the weeds making up your own house rules. So, I basically ignore it. Though I do permit someone to use their action to initiate HTH if they were not able or did not wish to do it as part of their movement. Note that this interpretation means that if you are higher in both MA and adj.DX than your foe, you can run up to them and attempt initiate HTH before they attack, unless they have a set pole weapon (though at the cost that they will get to attack you in HTH that same turn, but you cannot, as your action has already been used). I feel like that is pretty fair - totally outclassing someone in both measures of speed should come with rewards.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Shostak

So, what happens if one attempts HTH by way of the "Fast Method" and is repelled. Do they then get to make a charge attack during their action phase? It seems like they should, using your reasoning, but that doesn't seem fair to me.

Ummm... because they just did make a Charge Attack -- you can't have two Charge Attacks in one turn, no matter what the results of the first one.

Good question though. Repelled after trying option (o) clearly comes with being done for the turn, because the Attempt To Initiate HTH came on the turn to act. But being repelled using option (b) occurs during the movement phase.... and all the rules say is when repelled on a roll of 5 or 6:

5 – the defender does not drop its weapon, and the attacker immediately backs up to the hex from which it entered the defender’s hex. HTH combat does not take place.
6 – the defender does not drop his weapon, and automatically gets a hit on the attacker (even if the defender had already attacked that turn!) The attacker must retreat one hex as above. HTH combat does not take place.

Well neither of those expressly forbids either figure from getting their turn to act in the subsequent action phase. Although in the case of rolling 6, I doubt any would allow the attacker an action after being struck by the defender's weapon and sent flying backwards one hex! I'm only guessing, but I suspect the intent was rolling a 5 also ends the attacker's turn, just with less severe consequences for the failure.

It's reminiscent of another debate, if you scoop up a weapon on the move, can you or can't you then use the weapon that turn? The consensus opinion on that one was "no" if I recall correctly. Consistent with that, getting an action after trying to jump on someone on the move should also be "no", shouldn't it?

The bigger question is, does the defender still get a chance to act after repelling an Attempt To Initiate HTH during the movement phase? I'm very tempted to say yes, but I can't recall if it's ever come up and wonder how people feel about that?

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Re. the fast method: it sounds like you are not forcing the attacker to stop when first engaged on the 'run up' to a slower opponent's front hex. Is that right? I don't do that, both because it violates one of the core concepts of engagement and grants an exceptional ability to force HTH without facing an attack, even when you charge someone from the front, even if they have a set pole weapon.

Because an attacker using option (b) doesn't stop for engagement, but ends their move placing their counter on top of the defender. It's clearly the exception to the front hex rule:

"A disengaged figure picks option (b) to initiate HTH combat; he moves onto the enemy’s hex during movement and attacks during combat."

That's about as plain as day. Now keep in mind this move (if passing through a defender's front hex) can only be made if the defender is kneeling or has the lower MA. That's just what the RAW say.

Surely there has to be a roll for damage from a set pole weapon -- what's the contradiction? Pole weapons strike out of sequence, always going first, so...

Attacker moves counter through front hex of defender with set pole arm. Pole arm strikes first, so roll immediately for damage. If the defender misses, the attacker finishes their move on top the defender's counter and attempts to initiate HTH. If the defender hits, the attacker is either dead one hex shy of their goal (so no HTH) or if still alive after getting impaled, my choice would be to rule the attacker is now a screaming shish kabob held one hex away... the moment should be exploited for its cinematic qualities.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

he moves onto the enemy’s hex during movement and attacks during combat."

You wouldn't assume that the attacker gets to move an unlimited number of hexes to do this?

Therefore all existing rules apply and this needs to be read as "if the attacker is able (under all of other rules) to reach that hex without being stopped for some other reason". Ergo this must be through a side or rear hex.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

Consistent with that, getting an action after trying to jump on someone on the move should also be "no", shouldn't it?

I'd also say "No" but this appears to disagree with your earlier comment that "For a disengaged figure, using option (b), "The Attempt To Initiate" functions as movement. It occurs during the movement phase, and does not use up the chance to act."

The bigger question is, does the defender still get a chance to act after repelling an Attempt To Initiate HTH during the movement phase? I'm very tempted to say yes, but I can't recall if it's ever come up and wonder how people feel about that?

If the defender has not acted yet, then yes, they should, because if they can't act and repel an HTH initiation attempt in the same turn, then any HTH attempt made against a figure who has already acted would be an automatic success.