Brawling once again

[Axly Suregrip]

Where we are going with this topic does not make sense to me. That is, the suggestion that Brawling skill is only applicable to fights in bars. We are saying a combatant with this skill has a deeper understanding of how to do damage barehanded, and somehow this knowledge leaves him when he exits a bar. What if the fight starts in a bar then spills into the streets? If that is okay, then what if it starts in the streets just outside the bar? etc. He either knows how to inflict extra damage or he does not.

If you want to say it is limited to other humanoid targets, that at least makes sense.

I understand why we are looking for limitations to Brawlings. I am in agreement with Phinum that this skill is too powerful for too low a cost and at too low an IQ level. Brawling is IQ 7 cost 1 and grants +2 damage. By contrast, UC1 (IQ 10 cost 1 but only grants +1 and has the additional restriction of no armor heavier than Cloth).

The simplest fix may be to remove the +2 dirty fighting (this will then still leave it superior to UC1 other than the gain of kicking. I am okay with). Make it a friendly fight at +0 and the dirty fighting is at +1.

Or, limit it to only humanoid targets.

It definitely needs an adjustment for balance.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

Where we are going with this topic does not make sense to me. That is, the suggestion that Brawling skill is only applicable to fights in bars. ...

Well, I'm saying

1) It's not entirely clear to what various parts of the Brawling rules mean.

2) I think the +2 "dirty" part is about taking advantage of people who think you're not going to do that, so I think it does mean the +2 only works for one turn.

3) Since _steel daggers_ in HTH only do +3 (bronze daggers +2, no? so what should a quickly improvised bottle dagger do?) and everyone in HTH does +1, if Brawling can add another stacking +1, that's not much margin to give much meaning or reason to bother with daggers. So I think it's worth wondering whether the +1 mentioned for HTH stacks with the usual +1 in HTH or not. I expect it's meant to, but if it does, then I'm prone to agree with Henry (gasp) I'd be looking at a house rule adjustment to tone unarmed HTH damage down so that daggers are worth taking a turn (let alone a DX roll in HTH) to draw.

[Skipper2921]

I'm am not limiting the talent to bars but to situations where all participants understand that a brawl is occurring and not armed combat. These tend to be social situations like bars. They could also include sitting around a campfire when bragging between two alpha characters escalates into a fist fight, or when a training session turns into a competition of superiority. This might lead to a fun evening of breaking chairs on backs and throwing beer bottles with minimal risk of losing a character.

For Skarg:

1. I say the +2 is only for a friendly fight that turns unfriendly. The spider wouldn't agree to a friendly fight to begin with.

2. I'm not sure. The equality of a good brawler and a character trained in the use of a dagger is what leads me to restricting the situations Brawling talent is used. Following my line of thought on this being a non-lethal brawl, would a drawn dagger change this to lethal combat? The transition from "friendly" to "dirty" to "lethal" definitely needs thought.

3. I believe Brawling is not meant for lethal combat, I think others disagree.

4. That is another reason I think brawling and lethal combat are separate. A broken bottle just cannot be as good as a dagger regardless of your unscientific training.

[hcobb]

What level of UC is required to defend and engage?

The martial artist walks around behind the brawler and gives him a wedgie.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

I like the way Brawling talent works. The fact that being really good at brawling is better in the real world than having an introductory knowledge of martial arts (UC1) but can't match the benefits of truly proficient martial arts mastery (say, UC IV) is both perfectly realistic and in line with fictional tropes. And giving brawlers increased damage but not much else also makes sense within the context of TFT combat rules. The only thing I have questioned is whether the total damage done by a brawler is too high, but that is adequately addressed, in my mind, by ignoring that old hold-over rule from Melee that fighters get a HTH damage bonus.

Yes, I'm okay with Brawling being better than UCI.

There are a lot of suggestions so far on how to interpret Brawling so that it doesn't obviate the preference for daggers in combat.

I've heard (offline) one argument against changing my current interpretation of Brawling which I regard as RAW. It is that Brawling as a low IQ one point talent should be about as useful as knife. While you have to draw a knife in order to compete in HTH without Brawling, daggers give other advantages, such as throwability. The benefit of Brawling, so the argument goes, is about the same as the benefit of Knives.

I'm not totally convinced. A brawler doing exactly as well as a knife wielder sticks in my craw. The simplest solution I have, not ideal, is that Brawling doesn't stack with the natural +1 in HTH. In regular combat, a brawler has a one or two point advantage over a non-brawler when fighting unarmed. In HTH, he has a zero or one point advantage over a non-brawler, both unarmed.

The downside of this solution is that a brawler in HTH has no advantage at all over a non-brawler if both are fighting "clean". Oh, an even worse downside is that consistency would require I rule the same for a UC I guy, so he gets no advantage in HTH.

There's still a possibility I'll let brawling be as good as knife, because the game balancing argument isn't too bad.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

What level of UC is required to defend and engage?

The martial artist walks around behind the brawler and gives him a wedgie.

What is your point?

[Anomylous]

I'd probably go with the simple interpretation:

• 1-point talent -> +1 barehanded damage, seems fair enough.
  
• No bonus for "dirty fighting" in fights that weren't "friendly" to start with.
  
• As referee I'd give a character with Brawling a situational bonus to improvising weaponry, if the player told a good story.

So, Brawling is mainly useful as:

- UC1: Short-Bus Edition... you do a bit less damage in HTH than you would with a dagger, but tradeoff is you don't need to worry about drawing (or losing) that dagger.
- "Color" talent for characters who spend a lot of time at rowdy parties

...and I think that sounds about right.

[hcobb]

You can't throw a punch. The Knife talent covers more domains of combat than Brawling. If you want a dagger expert then learn Dagger Expertise.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

You can't throw a punch. The Knife talent covers more domains of combat than Brawling. If you want a dagger expert then learn Dagger Expertise.

I mean, aside from the fact that we literally say you throw punches, I don't think this is a stupid argument in terms of game balance. You're saying, if I understand correctly, that Brawling is about right given the cost.

Let's compare, assuming that the rules intended that a Brawler can have a +2 bonus in any situation he's fighting and that this stacks with the RAW +1 bonus for unarmed HTH.

• It's the same cost as Knives and does the same damage in HTH.
• You don't have to draw a fist, so that's an advantage.
• Daggers can be thrown.
• In regular combat, a ST 9 or 10 brawler does the same damage as a dagger, more if stronger.

That last item was one I hadn't paid attention to previously. I'm not sure how important it is. There are some places where you don't want to carry a serious weapon with you, but a dagger would not make a negative impression. In those places, the brawler has the advantage unless he's puny or you need to hurl a knife. But most times, a non-weakling would be using a better weapon than a knife anyway, so I'm not sure how important this item is.

I do think that whatever interpretation I choose, brawling should be about as useful as knives. The fact that your fist is available in every situation and a dagger must be drawn is a serious advantage, especially in HTH but not just in HTH. In a surprise attack, throwing a punch may be better than drawing a weapon.

The advantage that daggers can be thrown isn't all that great. Throwing a dagger isn't too useful unless you have Thrown Weapons, because you can do it only every other turn, and then you're looking at a three point combo against brawling.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Anomylous

I'd probably go with the simple interpretation:

• 1-point talent -> +1 barehanded damage, seems fair enough.
  
• No bonus for "dirty fighting" in fights that weren't "friendly" to start with.
  
• As referee I'd give a character with Brawling a situational bonus to improvising weaponry, if the player told a good story.

So, Brawling is mainly useful as:

- UC1: Short-Bus Edition... you do a bit less damage in HTH than you would with a dagger, but tradeoff is you don't need to worry about drawing (or losing) that dagger.
- "Color" talent for characters who spend a lot of time at rowdy parties

...and I think that sounds about right.

This isn't a bad interpretation. The "dirty fighting" advantage comes from using tactics the opponent did not expect. Some have suggested that this should be only a one turn advantage and I can see why thematically, since after you've done it once, they've learned you're a right dirty scoundrel and expect it now, but that sounds like a serious limitation. In the rare "friendly fight" you can have a one-time +1 damage attack, turning it dirty. I'd allow the +2 bonus in any fight that started friendly and that would be on both sides.

One disadvantage is that it adds an additional layer of complexity. Your bonus depends on how the fight began.

The balance I want to strike is that brawling should balance with knives, so that both are reasonably useful, but a punch shouldn't be equivalent to a stab for concerns of basic realism. There should be a thematic reason for the end interpretation and it should be tied to the description of brawling in the text. Ideally, it would not add a new layer of complexity.