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Old 04-25-2021, 05:27 PM   #21
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

There is a lot of room for latitude in how you want illusions to function in your game. If you want to really restrict what they can do and have them be a 'buggy' technology that breaks down in unusual situations, then you might latch onto statements like the one above re. weapons dropped in HTH. If you like your illusions to be a bit more free-form and contingent on the creator's will, then you might ignore the discussion about dropping weapons.
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Old 04-25-2021, 05:44 PM   #22
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

I just got it from a literal reading of the text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ITL 138
However, there are limitations. A single illusion cannot split in two – this is why an illusory fighter cannot use a thrown or missile weapon. Thus, an illusion of an explosive gem or Grenade would not be possible, though an illusion spear, thrown by a real person, would be possible.
I never even considered a one-hex exception. Instead, I just applied what I thought the words explicitly said.

I always thought there were some dubious consequences. An illusion of a fire would surely have disconnected parts, because thats how fires are. In that case, your one-hex limitation has something going for it.

I thought we had discussed this somewhere on the forum, but it's hard to search for, since the forum software ignores "HTH". Here's a post by Axly discussing what happens when an illusion drops his weapon. I'd say it agrees with my interpretation, but I think that I read his post when trying to come up with my own rule clarification, so the agreement goes the other way round.

A somewhat more relevant post by Nils Lindeberg, which is about initiating HTH.

Quote:
Initiative: 5+1 vs 6, reroll tie for 1+1 vs 1 Party wins and decide to go last.
U sacrifice himself a little and initiate HTH with F, the illusion, by moving on top of him. A 2 for defense means the illusion drops his shield and weapon, both disappear promptly. (Very suspicious!)
Note that Nils just says the weapon and shield disappear, but still requires someone to succeed at the 3/IQ Disbelieve roll, unlike what Axly suggests.

(All that said, of course I agree with Lars. Illusion is one of the many, many ways that the details are left to the GM to fill in as he sees fit.)

Last edited by phiwum; 04-25-2021 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 04-26-2021, 12:36 PM   #23
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
That's one interpretation, but an illusion can't do anything which a real figure can't do...

Inevitably, an illusion sometimes has to do something it can't do,.. One option is that everyone who sees the illusion gets a free disbelieve roll... Another is that the illusion vanishes
I think we're saying the same thing in slightly different ways.

Though there's a third option. Read further down ITL138, as it has a couple of bits about illusions gaining the reality that they have through others' belief in them, including the casting mage. It states a couple of times that illusions can't do impossible things. That is, just can't do them at all in the first place, not do them and disappear or maybe get disbelieved. Players that like that option would presumably wind up with two pinned figures, as neither one of them could escape to the next hex over.

(That scenario also highlights one of the problems with a literal interpretation here -- figures don't normally appear out of nowhere, as that's impossible in and of itself. So illusions can't appear, if we're being that literal. If we read it as "impossible except for magic, because magic is real", then a lot of impossible things are possible if someone just happened to be casting the right spell, including one figure sliding over into the next hex because for all the observers know, someone happened to research a Blink Other Insubstantially spell. Or there's the problem of casting an illusionary chimera which works fine on the Cidri native, but he's standing right next to a human from a far region of Cidri or just a mundane dimension where chimeras are purely mythological, and so impossible. It's probably easier in practice to go with "impossible things happening grant disbelief" -- in the last case, just for the mundane human -- rather than "impossible things simply can't happen".)
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Old 04-26-2021, 01:36 PM   #24
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

Oh, I didn't think we were disagreeing much. I thought your comment that this kind of abuse could lead to shifting a duplicating illusion through walls was a pretty compelling reason not to let the illusion shift in the pinned figure case. That was pretty clever.

I was just pointing out alternative views on what happens when an illusion is forced to do the impossible. With HTH, it can be a pickle, since the illusion has to drop his halberd and fall to the ground, but illusions can't be split in two. Each GM is left to figger out what to do then and it's bound to come up sooner or later.
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Old 04-26-2021, 03:43 PM   #25
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
... Players that like that option would presumably wind up with two pinned figures, as neither one of them could escape to the next hex over.
Yes, nothing specifically says you can or can't create an illusion duplicate of a figure in HTH, but the rule about splitting movement, it seems to me, is pretty clearly not thinking about a figure in HTH. I think the reason the illusion duplicate rule says a figure moves one hex, is because standing 1-hex figures aren't formally allowed to occupy the same hex, but figures in HTH are, so there would be no need to give a figure in HTH a free hex of movement, and in fact it would be weird if you did, because that normally requires an action and a 4/DX roll. If I allowed duplicates of figures in HTH at all (I probably would), I don't think I'd allow one to freely disengage from HTH - at best, I'd have the new duplicate be in HTH too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
(That scenario also highlights one of the problems with a literal interpretation here -- figures don't normally appear out of nowhere, as that's impossible in and of itself. So illusions can't appear, if we're being that literal. If we read it as "impossible except for magic, because magic is real", then a lot of impossible things are possible if someone just happened to be casting the right spell, including one figure sliding over into the next hex because for all the observers know, someone happened to research a Blink Other Insubstantially spell. Or there's the problem of casting an illusionary chimera which works fine on the Cidri native, but he's standing right next to a human from a far region of Cidri or just a mundane dimension where chimeras are purely mythological, and so impossible. It's probably easier in practice to go with "impossible things happening grant disbelief" -- in the last case, just for the mundane human -- rather than "impossible things simply can't happen".)
Yes, though the illusion rules say you can't conjure an illusion of "some wholly imaginary beastie", and they also say you can't give an illusion magic powers unless it's something/someone the victims know to have those magic powers. Both principles argue against "this illusion does something that is like a spell maybe someone has researched".

Creatures appearing out of thin air is like something real (Summon Myrmidon, etc). And a standing figure splitting in two and stepping apart is a specific trick illusions can do. It's also something that only happens with images and illusions, and it also gives away that one of them is an image or illusion - you just don't know which one. If the GM lets you do it to a figure in HTH, you also know it's an illusion, since an image would vanish on touch.
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Old 04-29-2021, 12:08 PM   #26
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipper2921 View Post
Note: The Shock Shield
spell is intended for HTH combat; it has no use if Wizard is played without
the Melee rules.
Shock Shield is a thrown spell, so you can cast it on other people (and it won't accidentally attach to your enemy).

And that raises a question: what happens when several wizards cast Shock Shield on someone (or the same wizard several times successively, maintaining each one)? 1 die damage for each spell?
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Old 04-29-2021, 12:20 PM   #27
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I never even considered a one-hex exception. Instead, I just applied what I thought the words explicitly said.

I always thought there were some dubious consequences. An illusion of a fire would surely have disconnected parts, because thats how fires are. In that case, your one-hex limitation has something going for it.
Fire is one of the special cases for illusions (one of my favorite things about illusions, actually):

Quote:
Originally Posted by ITL139
Illusions of Inanimate Objects: An illusion of fire, wall, or shadow will behave just like the real thing until it vanishes or is disbelieved. The same is true for an illusion of a hand- held weapon or a Magic Rope. Mages theorize this is true because these few inanimate objects are so often seen as illusions that they have somehow acquired extra power.
So not only can illusionary fire break up into pieces like regular fire, it "behaves just like the real thing". I.e. you can actually set things on fire with it.
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Old 04-29-2021, 01:15 PM   #28
hcobb
 
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Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

A slime or a piece of paper will ignore an illusion flame, but the holder of the paper will think it is burning.
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Old 04-29-2021, 04:40 PM   #29
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

Zot's right that the text says it behaves just like the real thing and the real thing causes permanent damage to inanimate stuff. But I can understand Henry's reluctance to read it like that, since that makes it so different from every other illusion that one can cast.

Still, I have to go with zot's literal reading on this. The text isn't really ambiguous, I think. So, Illusion gives you a free fire spell that has double the ST cost and can be disbelieved.
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Old 04-29-2021, 10:22 PM   #30
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

This would mean there is almost no reason to learn the rope spell. Rope and illusion both cost 2. The only difference being the illusion rope may be disbelieved.

I still think mindless things (slimes, zombies) should not be affected by illusionary fires, ropes, etc
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