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Old 04-23-2021, 04:25 PM   #11
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skipper2921 View Post
From the 2018 version of Wizard, page 23 Combining Wizard with Melee

Hand-to-Hand Combat: HTH combat is permitted, exactly as in Melee.
A wizard involved in HTH must drop his staff. He may cast spells, but only
on himself or his foe in HTH, and is at a -4 DX for that. He may draw and
use a dagger like any Melee fighter, but at -4 DX. Note: The Shock Shield
spell is intended for HTH combat; it has no use if Wizard is played without
the Melee rules.
That rule is also in the classic edition of Wizard. But the 'classic edition' of Advanced Melee says:
c. attempt to cast a spell. A wizard casting a spell
while involved in HTH combat is at a -6 DX,
because he is undergoing a severe distraction.


This is just one of many inconsistencies among the various versions and editions of TFT rules (including some between the different books in the legacy edition!). A couple of these have seen official clarifications but most are left to us to sort out through table rulings. I'll stick with the -6 version because I've remembered it too long to forget.
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Old 04-23-2021, 05:02 PM   #12
hcobb
 
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Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

What if Alice casts an Illusion duplicate of Bob who's pinned under a care bear?(sic, very sic)
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Old 04-23-2021, 05:26 PM   #13
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

If Bob is pinned, then he's pinned. If the illusion lays over Bob's physical form when it's cast, then the illusion is pinned.

The text on p. 139 says:
Quote:
this range.
A wizard may create an Image or Illusion Duplicate of
any figure present, including himself. Such a “double” may
even be created in the hex occupied by the original. Either the
original or the duplicate then immediately moves one hex in
any direction, confusing the foe.
This isn't a license to ignore every rule about movement in the book. A pinned figure can't move. If the illusion or the figure must move immediately, then we have a condition that cannot be met and the illusion vanishes.

How else could it reasonably work?
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Old 04-23-2021, 06:25 PM   #14
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

That's one for the GM to interpret, given situational variables. These books were not written to cover every imaginable complication and interaction between rules.

Personally, I'd say if the real figure is pinned they stay pinned; if the illusion appears under something so big that it could easily pin both, then it is pinned as well. If the illusion is intentionally created next to, above, etc. the other figure, of if the pinning figure is not big enough to easily pin multiple foes, the illusion immediately gets displaced into the adjacent hex.
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Old 04-23-2021, 06:55 PM   #15
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

I was figuring, Lars, that when we cast illusion of a duplicate, we do so on top of the original, so that for a split second, they share the same place (so the illusion is pinned too). The illusion or the original must move and neither can. Poof.
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Old 04-24-2021, 09:12 AM   #16
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

My thought was that creating an illusion of a duplicate is not any different, as a creation spell, it is just a different tactical choice about location, and so the caster has all kinds of options consistent with the general within-2-MH restriction.
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Old 04-24-2021, 12:48 PM   #17
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

Oh, yes, that's right with one caveat. When it's a duplicate, you can cast it into the same hex as the original but then one of them must immediately move. The purpose of that special rule, as I see it, is that the duplicate overlays the original and then one moves out and you can't tell which one.

If the original is pinned, the original can't move out and I'd think neither can the duplicate, since he is sharing the same space for an instant. Thus, poof goes the duplicate and 2 ST is wasted.
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Old 04-25-2021, 09:12 AM   #18
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by p. 139 says:
Either the original or the duplicate then immediately moves one hex in any direction, confusing the foe.
This isn't a license to ignore every rule about movement in the book.
Or conversely, if the spell does allow you to "move one hex in any direction", then Illusion Duplicates become a great way to get through walls, locked doors, prison bars, etc.

The point of the movement is just a meta game thing. It puts two identical figures in two adjacent hexes so the enemy players don't know which is which, thus simulating that confusion of the foe. I doubt it's really meant as a one-hex teleport.

In a constrained situation, you could always rule that the illusion must be the one that slides to a different hex, because the real target can't. That would, of course, make the illusion fairly pointless against smart foes, so it likely wouldn't be cast in that situation in the first place. But that's a little softer prohibition than just saying the spell doesn't work.
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Old 04-25-2021, 10:03 AM   #19
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Or conversely, if the spell does allow you to "move one hex in any direction", then Illusion Duplicates become a great way to get through walls, locked doors, prison bars, etc.

The point of the movement is just a meta game thing. It puts two identical figures in two adjacent hexes so the enemy players don't know which is which, thus simulating that confusion of the foe. I doubt it's really meant as a one-hex teleport.

In a constrained situation, you could always rule that the illusion must be the one that slides to a different hex, because the real target can't. That would, of course, make the illusion fairly pointless against smart foes, so it likely wouldn't be cast in that situation in the first place. But that's a little softer prohibition than just saying the spell doesn't work.
That's one interpretation, but an illusion can't do anything which a real figure can't do. It is supposed to be treated as an ordinary figure (ITL 138, second paragraph).

Inevitably, an illusion sometimes has to do something it can't do, such as drop a weapon when a foe initiates HTH. It's unclear what happens in that case. One option is that everyone who sees the illusion gets a free disbelieve roll. Another is that the illusion vanishes, because the effect of seeing the impossible (a weapon disappearing, in this case) is sufficient to cause disbelief in any who see the illusion.

I've tended to the latter interpretation and so I apply it here. A pinned figure can't just suddenly move to the adjacent hex, so poof. I'd think the other alternative is a free disbelieve, rather than just the observation of a physical impossibility causing some suspicion. Even a dumb animal has some model of how the world works, some expectations of causality.
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Old 04-25-2021, 05:11 PM   #20
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Cast out of HTH

“Inevitably, an illusion sometimes has to do something it can't do, such as drop a weapon when a foe initiates HTH. It's unclear what happens in that case. One option is that everyone who sees the illusion gets a free disbelieve roll. Another is that the illusion vanishes, because the effect of seeing the impossible (a weapon disappearing, in this case) is sufficient to cause disbelief in any who see the illusion.”

It never occurred to me that dropping a weapon would invalidate an illusion. I always allowed separation of the illusion within its hex (or more for a larger illusion.) So an illusion of a juggler was perfectly fine to my way of thinking.

However, if the illusory figure that dropped the weapon was pushed back, then a discerning adversary might notice the weapon disappear.
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