TL0^ and other oddities

[PTTG]

More of a thought experiment than anything else, I started wondering about what a TL0(Superscience!) setting might look like.

It seems that generally, there's two kinds of superscience: the kind that assumes that physics is different (Dean Drive type stuff) and stuff that assumes that human understanding of physics is wrong in some critical way.

As such, there are two hypothetical TL0^ interpretation.

In the first, physics is different. maybe there is some naturally-occurring mineral that has antigravity properties, and a caveman could easily shape it into a flying stone sledge.

In the second, some other thing is present. Perhaps Psionics actually does work, but because of an accident of history, it was never developed. Cavemen who use psionics would then be TL0^.

It seems similar to magic in both cases, and would very likely be described in magical terms... but they wouldn't be magic. The hover-canoe might have a defined lift capacity and performance metrics, all of which would be totally unrelated to the personal power of the person who made it. Psionics might look like magic, but if dimension travel were to introduce it to a mage, it would be as alien to him as to most others. Especially if Psionics is reliable and teachable while Magic is variable and magical.

You could treat Mana as a natural resource that makes TL0 into TL0^, meaning that anything where magic is presence is basically a superscience setting. I personally think this only applies in a universe- regardless of mana level- where magic use drastically changes the economy. A low-mana-level world with lots of mages with significant magery levels could have good crops every year and have nearly perfect health- effectively making TL2 into TL2+6^ or more! On the other hand, a High Mana world with only a handful of mages every generation could be TL3 with isolated mages wielding incredible cosmic powers that don't really change the way people generally live. Even TL8 in such a world might end up just having slightly more impressive David Blanes.

Going back to TL0^, there are a few "technologies" that actually could come into play at this level. I for one like "Parachronic Navigation" which is simply the ability to locate and navigate natural portals. It's not Precise Navigation like is mentioned as a TL4 breakthrough, it's just a rational understanding of portals and the structure of the cosmos."

Psionic Herbal Treatment is a offshoot of normal TL0 Herbalism. If there are synthetic pharmaceuticals that can improve Psionic powers, why not mushrooms?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by PTTG

It seems that generally, there's two kinds of superscience: the kind that assumes that physics is different (Dean Drive type stuff) and stuff that assumes that human understanding of physics is wrong in some critical way.

I do not see a difference between these kinds.

[Genesis]

So, at TL0^ you're almost limited to making use of materials with exotic properties that naturally occur in setting, rather than super engineering or anything. I mean, if (some) people are naturally psi or magic that'll change things, but the changes you get will be pretty limited by whatever spells/powers are available at TL0. There's just so little 'tech' at that point that meaningful divergence is pretty restricted... I would just call most things magic, rather than 'magitech.'

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by PTTG

More of a thought experiment than anything else, I started wondering about what a TL0(Superscience!) setting might look like.

It seems that generally, there's two kinds of superscience: the kind that assumes that physics is different (Dean Drive type stuff) and stuff that assumes that human understanding of physics is wrong in some critical way.

No, there are three kinds: You're overlooking Limited Superscience.

[Libertine]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

No, there are three kinds: You're overlooking Limited Superscience.

Plant based tech maybe? Like a growable material that can be woven stronger than steel and is used for that purpose? Wooden musical instruments that, if a certain tones are used, heavy objects could be moved telekinetically? Herbs mixtures that heal mortal wounds in less than a day? Crystals used as a power source? Atlantean myths are a good starting point, then work backwards a little.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Genesis

So, at TL0^ you're almost limited to making use of materials with exotic properties that naturally occur in setting, rather than super engineering or anything. '

I came up with a TL 0^ technique for building standing circles in a way that folded space so you could use them to teleport from one to another.

[Agemegos]

Isn't that getting us into TL 0+n^ territory, though? TL 0^ ought to be roughly as capable and productive as TL0, but using scientifically implausible means to achieve it.

I'm thinking of a setting in which people live on giant floating lily-pad-like things on a water world, and have to use the teeth of giant fish as a substitute for flint &c, but even that is more like a +0 than a 0^.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Isn't that getting us into TL 0+n^ territory, though? TL 0^ ought to be roughly as capable and productive as TL0, but using scientifically implausible means to achieve it.

Well TL x^ can be the same as TL x but with FTL or artificial gravity or whatever. If FTL doesn't make TL x into TL x+n, then maybe there's a stone age analog, right? If you could use sacred geometry to open stargates on cave walls with the right patterns and pigments, wouldn't it be TL 0^ with FTL?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Isn't that getting us into TL 0+n^ territory, though? TL 0^ ought to be roughly as capable and productive as TL0, but using scientifically implausible means to achieve it.
.

No, that's wrong. A common example of super science in action is the Path Not Taken, where anti-gravity is a bronze age technology and the most advanced interstellar civilization is very proud of their matchlocks until they try to invade near future Earth blind. Super science is _super_.

In the case of my neolithic space warpers, they do have a really good transportation technology that facilitates communication and trade over long distances...but their idea of advanced medicine is trepanation to let the evil spirits out. They're armed with spears with stone tips. The only thing they know how to do with a horse or an ox is eat it. They're TL 0 in every way except a couple of applications of space warping geometry that don't really make sense.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Well TL x^ can be the same as TL x but with FTL or artificial gravity or whatever. If FTL doesn't make TL x into TL x+n, then maybe there's a stone age analog, right? If you could use sacred geometry to open stargates on cave walls with the right patterns and pigments, wouldn't it be TL 0^ with FTL?

I guess so. I'm struggling to see it as being significant enough to note that way without increasing either capability or productivity enough to deserve 0+1^. Perhaps if I drank more coffee.