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Old 03-28-2023, 10:32 AM   #11
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Two-handed weapons normally don't suffer those kinds of penalties though, like there's not usually a penalty to use Wild Swing with them.
Those rules are for using a two-handed weapon with Defensive Grip, where it does indeed suffer a (further) penalty to use Wild Swing. One-handed weapons suffer a general to-hit penalty of -2 (I assume because there's not enough room on the handle to properly accommodate a second hand) and have a general +1 to damage (because you can combine the strength of two arms for your attacks)when used with Defensive Grip. Two-handed weapons enjoy a -1 to breakage chance (I think because your defensive grip better stabilizes it and/or makes it easier for you to deflect rather than absorb a hit) suffer a Wild Swing to-hit penalty of -2 (because it's less maneuverable) and a swing damage penalty of -2 or -1/die (because you're gripping it closer to the tip, and thus you have less leverage). Weapons that are designed for one- or two-handed use are stated to use the rules for two-handed weapons, so there's the increased Wild Swing penalty and decreased damage when using them with Defensive Grip. Both types of weapons enjoy a +1 to Parry frontal attacks but a further -1 (net -3) to Parry side attacks.

The question for the thread is if weapons usable with a one-handed skill (Broadsword or Axe/Mace, typically) can continue to use that skill when used with Defensive Grip, or if they change to using a two-handed skill (Two-Handed Sword or Two-Handed Axe/Mace, typically) instead. It sounds like the intent is that they use the latter, although that does mean Defensive Grip is largely useless for a character who favors using a one-handed skill (that +1 to Parry becomes a net -1 to Parry when considering the -4 to skill for defaulting from the one-handed skill).
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Old 03-28-2023, 10:49 AM   #12
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
T One-handed weapons suffer a general to-hit penalty of -2 (I assume because there's not enough room on the handle to properly accommodate a second hand) .
Lack of room on the handle would be for general two-handed use. For swords and Defensive Grip you need something like the ricasso on a zweihander or the blunt blade sections on those trick longswords.

Hafted weapons just need more haft but most arming swords wouldn't allow Defensive Grip at all unless maybe you had a thick gauntlet on your off-hand for grabbing the blade.. The shorter your blade is the less use it is because you're putting your off-hand closer to your enemy.

You have more leverage but less flexibility or fluidity.

I judge it to be a much more limited Technique than many people around here seem to. It's not very high on my list of things to teach to newbies.
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Old 03-28-2023, 11:10 AM   #13
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Lack of room on the handle would be for general two-handed use. For swords and Defensive Grip you need something like the ricasso on a zweihander or the blunt blade sections on those trick longswords.
I'm away from the machine with most of my books on it, but I believe Martial Arts makes it clear that for one-handed-"only" weapons (like the Thrusting Broadsword) a Defensive Grip involves placing another hand on the hilt/handle - for a sword, this would often mean your offhand basically gripping the pommel. Half-swording and the like is apparently only necessary for weapons that are typically two-handed. For a weapon without a ricasso, such that the blade is sharp all the way down to the hilt, from what I understand you actually can half-sword effectively even without thick gloves (although they certainly aren't a bad idea!). If you opt to require Defensive Grip with a dedicated one-handed weapon to be akin to half-swording (which is honestly probably more appropriate, with "-2 to hit, +1 damage for using two hands" as an option completely separate from Defensive Grip for such weapons), it would probably be appropriate to just treat it as though it were two-handed to start with... although a -1 to Reach wouldn't be out of the question (honestly, that's probably not inappropriate for some two-handers). Damage might instead be +1 for thrusting and a net -1 (or -1 per 2d) to swing - basically still a general +1 to damage for using two hands, but no -2 to hit for being an awkward grip (it's the same as a Defensive Grip with a two-hander).

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I judge it to be a much more limited Technique than many people around here seem to. It's not very high on my list of things to teach to newbies.
From short conversations with people who have actually done some training with such weapons, the defensive grip seems to be something that lets them use even unbalanced weapons more like a staff or spear, for markedly improved parrying and tip control. But then from such conversations I get the idea that most combat skills should default to each other much more readily than in GURPS (with the possible exception of one-handed spear, which seems to pretty much be its own thing), and with cross-training being much easier than the default GURPS rules. But that gets well into the weeds of houserules and my general beef with GURPS' combat skills, which are probably not appropriate for this thread.
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Old 03-28-2023, 12:42 PM   #14
Plane
 
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
The question for the thread is if weapons usable with a one-handed skill (Broadsword or Axe/Mace, typically) can continue to use that skill when used with Defensive Grip, or if they change to using a two-handed skill (Two-Handed Sword or Two-Handed Axe/Mace, typically) instead. It sounds like the intent is that they use the latter
Since this can apply to 1H weapons which aren't usable via a 2-handed skill (like say a dagger) I always figured when adapting a 1H style to a defensive grip it's like "hand atop hand" (there wouldn't be room to put hands separately on the short handle)

I see Katana as having 2 options:

1) you wield it via the 2H skill and treat it as a 2H weapon in defensive grip (retains 2H skill)

2) you wield it via the 1H skill and treat it as a 1H weapon in defensive grip (retains 1H skill)
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Old 03-28-2023, 02:52 PM   #15
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Since this can apply to 1H weapons which aren't usable via a 2-handed skill (like say a dagger) I always figured when adapting a 1H style to a defensive grip it's like "hand atop hand" (there wouldn't be room to put hands separately on the short handle)

I see Katana as having 2 options:

1) you wield it via the 2H skill and treat it as a 2H weapon in defensive grip (retains 2H skill)

2) you wield it via the 1H skill and treat it as a 1H weapon in defensive grip (retains 1H skill)
But it doesn't have 2 options.

"Treat a weapon that can be used one- or two-handed ... as two-handed for this purpose."

A katana can be used one or two handed, so it is treated as a two handed weapon for defense grip.
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Old 03-28-2023, 05:32 PM   #16
kenclary
 
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Since this can apply to 1H weapons which aren't usable via a 2-handed skill (like say a dagger) I always figured when adapting a 1H style to a defensive grip it's like "hand atop hand" (there wouldn't be room to put hands separately on the short handle)
That is, more or less, how Defensive Grip is supposed to work for weapons where "half swording" wouldn't be practical. It's not necessarily "hand atop hand" but it could be if the handle were really that small. A two-fisted grip regardless.

And, because it's a two-handed grip, by GURPS' normal rules, it used a two-handed skill.
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Old 03-29-2023, 05:59 AM   #17
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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Originally Posted by kenclary View Post
...

And, because it's a two-handed grip, by GURPS' normal rules, it used a two-handed skill.
And this is where the extra -2 to skill comes in, the weapon is not meant to be used with 2 hands and incurs an additional penalty to use.
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Old 03-29-2023, 07:15 AM   #18
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Since this can apply to 1H weapons which aren't usable via a 2-handed skill (like say a dagger) I always figured when adapting a 1H style to a defensive grip it's like "hand atop hand" (there wouldn't be room to put hands separately on the short handle)

I see Katana as having 2 options:

1) you wield it via the 2H skill and treat it as a 2H weapon in defensive grip (retains 2H skill)

2) you wield it via the 1H skill and treat it as a 1H weapon in defensive grip (retains 1H skill)
Yeah, that honestly matches what I was thinking, but a closer look at the text has made be agree with others here that the intent is indeed that you need to use a 2H skill (just as being strong enough to use a 2H weapon with one hand means using a 1H skill). Note this implies there should be a 2H Knife* and 2H Shortsword skill, in addition to 2H Sword (used for Broadsword-class weapons and larger). Now, personally, I think Reach C blades should use Brawling (which allows for 2H use natively anyway) and any Reach 1+ blade should use Broadsword one-handed and 2H Sword (which should probably be renamed Greatsword, but I digress) two-handed, but that once again gets into my beef with GURPS' combat skills and is rather off-topic, here. If using GURPS RAW, you'll have to decide if Knife allows for two-handed use or if it uses 2H Sword (Shortsword-class weapons would just use 2H Sword). That's a bit problematic considering neither Knife nor Shortsword share a default with 2H Sword, so users are even further disincentivized to put a second hand on their weapon (as if the -6 to do so with a typical Broadsword-class weapon weren't enough).

*From my understanding there are two-handed uses of knife-class weapons. I believe the disk-shaped pommel of the rondel dagger was to facilitate using a second hand to help push the blade in (and I've heard from one Marine that the USMC teaches a similar technique for their combat knives, which also have a flat pommel, albeit not an extended disk like the rondel). And of course there's something that has been done in at least one high-profile murder/assassination in Japan (and shows up with some frequency in anime; I've seen a few isekai stories start with the protagonist being murdered by some rando in such fashion, although I think truck-kun still holds the record for number of people isekai'd) of someone holding a semi-concealed knife in two hands down near their waist and rushing their target to stab them.
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Old 03-29-2023, 08:56 AM   #19
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

I read the paragraph in MA about weapons that can be used as one- or two-handed being treated as two-handed as applying only to the bonuses, penalties, and limitations described in the preceding paragraph -- not to the skill used, damage stats, or anything else. It seems odd to me that someone could add a hand to a sword like a broadsword or cavalry saber (which was not designed for two hands) using broadsword skill, but if they grip a bastard sword (which was made to be used one or two handed, and can normally be used with broadsword skill) the same way, for some reason they have to use two-handed sword skill at default.

Note that it says "for this purpose." To me that indicates it's just for the purpose of determining the effects of a defensive grip.

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Old 03-29-2023, 10:45 AM   #20
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: Katana in defensive grip

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Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman View Post
I read the paragraph in MA about weapons that can be used as one- or two-handed being treated as two-handed as applying only to the bonuses, penalties, and limitations described in the preceding paragraph -- not to the skill used, damage stats, or anything else. It seems odd to me that someone could add a hand to a sword like a broadsword or cavalry saber (which was not designed for two hands) using broadsword skill, but if they grip a bastard sword (which was made to be used one or two handed, and can normally be used with broadsword skill) the same way, for some reason they have to use two-handed sword skill at default.

Note that it says "for this purpose." To me that indicates it's just for the purpose of determining the effects of a defensive grip.
This is a problem with the bad defaults between different Melee Weapon skills in GURPS, not with the Defensive Grip rules. Putting both hands on the handle of eg. a Longsword has stats on the Weapons Table, so it should use those. If Two-Handed Sword defaulted to Sword-2, the skill penalty would be the same as in the Defensive Grip rules (I can see a case for an extra -1 to -2 penalty for swords whose grip is not well suited for two-handed use such as a Viking sword or a 19th century European sabre).

It would be silly to have two different sets of stats for using a Longsword with both hands on the grip: one from the Weapons Table under Two-Handed Sword, and the other from the Defensive Grip rules. That encourages players to cherrypick. I think the rules were designed to make it clear that if the weapon already has stats for two-handed use, you use those.
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