What's so terrible about Centrum anyway? - Page 4

Jürgen Hubert · 11-06-2005, 04:54 AM

Perhaps a very loose allegory would help...

Remember the Cold War. Homeline is the USA, and Centrum is Russia. Both are near invincible military juggernauts that can do pretty much whatever they want to your own timeline if they really make an effort, unless you happen one of the fortunate few like Caliph, Merlin, or Reich-5 that come close or even surpasses them in technological or military prowess.

Now, in whose sphere of influence would you rather live in?

(The ideal answer would, of course, be neither, but the various time lines are given even less choice in that matter than many Earth countries during the Cold War...)

Ragabash Moon · 11-06-2005, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

Perhaps a very loose allegory would help...

Remember the Cold War. Homeline is the USA, and Centrum is Russia. Both are near invincible military juggernauts that can do pretty much whatever they want to your own timeline if they really make an effort, unless you happen one of the fortunate few like Caliph, Merlin, or Reich-5 that come close or even surpasses them in technological or military prowess.

Now, in whose sphere of influence would you rather live in?

(The ideal answer would, of course, be neither, but the various time lines are given even less choice in that matter than many Earth countries during the Cold War...)

Hmmm... good analogy.

Qoltar · 11-06-2005, 05:19 AM

Ugh..too early in the morning, ....so :

Simpler answer: HOMELINE has "Partying People"

CENTRUM - Can't picture them having parties worth going to.

HOMELINE inhabitants - better in bed!!

CENTRUM - boring conformists...nuff said.

now I'll try to go to sleep and dram of adapying ZELAZNY's "Roadmarks" to Gurps 4th edition...either that or I'll dream about a really cool brunette.

- E.W. Charlton

Martichoras · 11-06-2005, 05:51 AM

Actually, I seem to be visualizing the Centrum chaps as the French, pretty much. European centralist meritocrats, with a nation concept based (theoretically, anyway) on adopted culture rather than ethnic background.

Then again, I only have "Basic Set: Campaigns" to go by.

I think that adding a Communist entity, out to spread the revolution across the parallells might be interesting, as might a genuinely Libertarian crossworld movement.

I don't think Centrum should be painted too darkly, as Reich-5 seems to fill the Indisputably Evil Empire slot better anyway.

HeroPenguin · 11-06-2005, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

... and we all know the general opinion on communism in the US

That it's a neat idea that probably will never work thanks to human greed?

Frankly, I like Qoltar's reasoning the best. It's a very good point. XD

CKayote · 11-06-2005, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martichoras

Actually, I seem to be visualizing the Centrum chaps as the French, pretty much. European centralist meritocrats, with a nation concept based (theoretically, anyway) on adopted culture rather than ethnic background.

Yeah, I see them as Swedish-type European socialists rather than Stalinist communists. I generally would emphasize the technocracy aspects though.

Has anyone ever considered running a future IW campaign where Centrum and Homeline are allied agianst some greater threat?

CKayote@gmail.com

Phil Masters · 11-06-2005, 10:50 AM

I think that the problem was that GURPS Time Travel wanted to set up (a) an entertaining, diverse homeline, and (b) a bunch of antagonists. But the antagonists were set up as a bit like the Big International Threat of a few years ago (the Soviet Union), without a lot of explanation of why they were "bad", and were in fact carefully depicted as human and not cartoon villains.

The trouble with that is that gamers really want cartoon villains at heart. Well, we've got the lunatic fringe of Reich-5 to fill that role now. Centrum might just be left as powerful, a bit arrogant and smug, a bit intolerant of other viewpoints - which would make them perfectly good humanised villains, except for some things that were said about Homeline and Infinity, for plot convenience. Treating people in other timelines as resources, disappearing people who get in the way (however gently), generally resorting to what's most expedient at times... Uh, yeah, arrogant, smug, intolerant of other viewpoints... Even if Centrum still looked like Brezhnevite Russia, Infinity could easily end up looking like a Nixonite CIA.

But if you think it's too easy to make Centrum look like the good guys, try making the Reality Liberation Front look evil. Any time they appear in a game, half the PCs are likely to end up signing up if you're not careful.

Rene Narciso · 11-06-2005, 11:26 AM

Centrum is NOT very much like communism/socialism, I believe. They are a meritocracy, and it's my impression that to Marxists a meritocracy is either evil or bogus or both (most times both). The idea of the "fittest" being "rewarded" is abhorent to socialists. They like to think there is no "fittest" or even if there is, everyone should have equal rights no matter what.

Another major difference is that Centrum is ecologically conscious. Communist dictatorships tended to see the environment as a resource to be ruthlessly exploited by the state.

I think Centrum is pretty sympathetic too.

1) They have legalized drugs. Damn right.

2) They don't discriminate (except against outtimers, of course)

3) They don't have a "Prime Directive" (something I always felt conflicted about, as I'm not sure there is a lot of nobility in the kind of moral relativism that will allow Star Trek: Next Generation and up crews to wash their hands on very unsavory worlds or European liberals urging us to "respect" cultures that brutally oppress women and gays). Of course, Infinity isn't as bad as recent Star Trek or European liberals, since they DO try to interfere in very bad worlds.

Obviously, what makes Centrum "not good guys" is the fact that they don't put a lot of value in individual life, IMO.

sir_pudding · 11-06-2005, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

Pretty much every Homeliner that has been to a Gotha parallel . they don't outright say it, but I'm thinkin' they probably executed them all and incinerated the bodies. That would be about the only way to totally prevent Homeline from becoming a Gotha world.

That's a little extreme given that the Gotha plague is treatable by antibiotics since it's carried by the pneumonic plague.

sir_pudding · 11-06-2005, 11:51 AM

I think it's refreshing that the central conflict in Infinite Worlds isn't between good and evil, it's between two powerful states that have philosophies that are diametrically opposed and like all such conflicts in RL, begin to resemble each other because of it. Centrum vs. Infinity as Jurgen and Phil have said is the post-Stalinist cold war and I like it that way. Moral ambiguity makes conflicts realistic. It also has potential as a metaphor for the morally ambigious conflict we find ourselves in today.

As far as the RLA goes, I'd suggest allowing them to succeed in breaking the Secret on a small scale with horrible consequences. Another possibility is to treat them more as terrorists, even if you may sympathize with the Irish nationalists or Chechnian rebels the IRA and Al'Queda still are aborrent. What if an RLA to spread the plans for a conveyor allowed Al'Queda to construct one and launch a massive terrorist strike somewhere?

11-06-2005, 04:54 AM	#31
Jürgen Hubert Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Oldenburg, Germany	Re: What's so terrible about Centrum anyway? Perhaps a very loose allegory would help... Remember the Cold War. Homeline is the USA, and Centrum is Russia. Both are near invincible military juggernauts that can do pretty much whatever they want to your own timeline if they really make an effort, unless you happen one of the fortunate few like Caliph, Merlin, or Reich-5 that come close or even surpasses them in technological or military prowess. Now, in whose sphere of influence would you rather live in? (The ideal answer would, of course, be neither, but the various time lines are given even less choice in that matter than many Earth countries during the Cold War...) __________________ GURPS Repository • Sunken Castles, Evil Poodles - translating German folk tales into English!

11-06-2005, 05:19 AM	#33
Qoltar Pike's Pique Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio U.S.A.	Re: What's so terrible about Centrum anyway? Ugh..too early in the morning, ....so : Simpler answer: HOMELINE has "Partying People" CENTRUM - Can't picture them having parties worth going to. HOMELINE inhabitants - better in bed!! CENTRUM - boring conformists...nuff said. now I'll try to go to sleep and dram of adapying ZELAZNY's "Roadmarks" to Gurps 4th edition...either that or I'll dream about a really cool brunette. - E.W. Charlton

11-06-2005, 05:51 AM	#34
Martichoras Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oslo, Norway	Re: What's so terrible about Centrum anyway? Actually, I seem to be visualizing the Centrum chaps as the French, pretty much. European centralist meritocrats, with a nation concept based (theoretically, anyway) on adopted culture rather than ethnic background. Then again, I only have "Basic Set: Campaigns" to go by. I think that adding a Communist entity, out to spread the revolution across the parallells might be interesting, as might a genuinely Libertarian crossworld movement. I don't think Centrum should be painted too darkly, as Reich-5 seems to fill the Indisputably Evil Empire slot better anyway. __________________ "I will prove it with string, iodine and a note from my mother" (Eddie Izzard, "Circle" album)

11-06-2005, 10:50 AM	#37
Phil Masters Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: U.K.	Re: What's so terrible about Centrum anyway? I think that the problem was that GURPS Time Travel wanted to set up (a) an entertaining, diverse homeline, and (b) a bunch of antagonists. But the antagonists were set up as a bit like the Big International Threat of a few years ago (the Soviet Union), without a lot of explanation of why they were "bad", and were in fact carefully depicted as human and not cartoon villains. The trouble with that is that gamers really want cartoon villains at heart. Well, we've got the lunatic fringe of Reich-5 to fill that role now. Centrum might just be left as powerful, a bit arrogant and smug, a bit intolerant of other viewpoints - which would make them perfectly good humanised villains, except for some things that were said about Homeline and Infinity, for plot convenience. Treating people in other timelines as resources, disappearing people who get in the way (however gently), generally resorting to what's most expedient at times... Uh, yeah, arrogant, smug, intolerant of other viewpoints... Even if Centrum still looked like Brezhnevite Russia, Infinity could easily end up looking like a Nixonite CIA. But if you think it's too easy to make Centrum look like the good guys, try making the Reality Liberation Front look evil. Any time they appear in a game, half the PCs are likely to end up signing up if you're not careful. __________________ -- Phil Masters My Home Page. My Self-Publications: On Warehouse 23 and On DriveThruRPG.

11-06-2005, 11:26 AM	#38
Rene Narciso Join Date: Aug 2005	Re: What's so terrible about Centrum anyway? Centrum is NOT very much like communism/socialism, I believe. They are a meritocracy, and it's my impression that to Marxists a meritocracy is either evil or bogus or both (most times both). The idea of the "fittest" being "rewarded" is abhorent to socialists. They like to think there is no "fittest" or even if there is, everyone should have equal rights no matter what. Another major difference is that Centrum is ecologically conscious. Communist dictatorships tended to see the environment as a resource to be ruthlessly exploited by the state. I think Centrum is pretty sympathetic too. 1) They have legalized drugs. Damn right. 2) They don't discriminate (except against outtimers, of course) 3) They don't have a "Prime Directive" (something I always felt conflicted about, as I'm not sure there is a lot of nobility in the kind of moral relativism that will allow Star Trek: Next Generation and up crews to wash their hands on very unsavory worlds or European liberals urging us to "respect" cultures that brutally oppress women and gays). Of course, Infinity isn't as bad as recent Star Trek or European liberals, since they DO try to interfere in very bad worlds. Obviously, what makes Centrum "not good guys" is the fact that they don't put a lot of value in individual life, IMO. Last edited by Rene Narciso; 11-06-2005 at 11:54 AM.

11-06-2005, 11:51 AM	#40
sir_pudding Wielder of Smart Pants Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ventura CA	Re: What's so terrible about Centrum anyway? I think it's refreshing that the central conflict in Infinite Worlds isn't between good and evil, it's between two powerful states that have philosophies that are diametrically opposed and like all such conflicts in RL, begin to resemble each other because of it. Centrum vs. Infinity as Jurgen and Phil have said is the post-Stalinist cold war and I like it that way. Moral ambiguity makes conflicts realistic. It also has potential as a metaphor for the morally ambigious conflict we find ourselves in today. As far as the RLA goes, I'd suggest allowing them to succeed in breaking the Secret on a small scale with horrible consequences. Another possibility is to treat them more as terrorists, even if you may sympathize with the Irish nationalists or Chechnian rebels the IRA and Al'Queda still are aborrent. What if an RLA to spread the plans for a conveyor allowed Al'Queda to construct one and launch a massive terrorist strike somewhere?