Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-04-2020, 11:05 AM   #1
EskrimadorNC
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Default The Raid: Redemption, a Technical Grappling Analysis

So in an attempt to continue to evolve my understand of GURPS Combat, GURPS Martial Arts, and GURPS Technical Grappling rules, I was inspired by TG's writer Douglas Cole's "Technical Natasha" blog post to do my own TG Analysis.

I picked part 1 of the Hallway Fight Scene from The Raid: Redemption. If you like martial arts movies and haven't seen this one what, stop what you are doing RIGHT FREAKING NOW and go watch it. You won't be disappointed.

My goals for analysis and posting are 3-fold:
  • Translate movie fight choreography to GURPS mechanics to help me better understand how all of the pieces work together AND help me become better at describing such action when it unfolds at my table.
  • Sanity-check my analysis against other GMs and players to see if I am getting mechanics right or leaving out any major components.
  • Build an understanding of what skill levels, advantages, perks, techniques, and foe behaviors are necessary to running combat that can capture the FEEL of what you see on screen in a movie like this.

Here is the youtube clip of the fight scene I'll be working off of:

https://youtu.be/o1eoThF59w0

But seriously, go watch the whole movie. I'm pretty sure it's on Netflix.

Also, I'm going to split the analysis up into several posts to make replying to individual pieces of easier.

Last edited by EskrimadorNC; 12-04-2020 at 12:47 PM.
EskrimadorNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 11:15 AM   #2
EskrimadorNC
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Default Re: The Raid: Redemption, a Technical Grappling Analysis

Special Note: Like many other martial arts movies, the Bad Guys most obviously get stunned, but usually stay standing. This is common in cinema as finishing a standing foe is viewed more heroic than finishing a prone foe. I will call out specific cases where it is clear that the bad guy is stunned per GURPS rules, but does not fall prone.

Spoiler-Free Setup:
Rama, a SWAT-type police officer in Jakarta finds himself trapped in large apartment building filled with drug dealers and gang-bangers, all who want him dead. He is trying to escape, but most of the residents have other plans. Also, he is out of ammo at this point, hence all the melee combat and no shooting.


Timestamp: 0:18
1st Badguy w/machete AoA
Rama Parries with Tonfa
Then hits Face w/tonfa and Knee (joint) w/knife (swing)


[TA Tonfa/Face is -5 and TA Knife/Knee are both at -5. Rama performs these individual attacks several more times, so there is a good case for bought-up TA Tonfa/Face and TA Knife/Knee, but this exact sequence isn't used again, so a Combination is unlikely. Even with TA bought up, the Rapid Strike penalties would be high (-8 for both). More likely, Rama has the Off-Hand Weapon Training (Knife) perk, and possibly improved DWA (Knife) and DWA (Tonfa). Based on the rest of the fight, I think that Extra Attack 1 is even more likely. With improved TA and Extra Attack, Skill-16 here makes this combo very likely to succeed.]

Timestamp: 0:22
2nd Badguy (white shirt) w/ pipe AoA
Rama Parries with knife <karate?>
Rama hits WS in the torso (vitals?) with the tonfa and performs an Armed Grapple on WS’s leg
WS is Stunned from the Tonfa hit (more likely a vitals hit) and performs DO NOTHING
Next Turn, Rama Stabs WS’s leg with knife and then cuts down the leg


[There are two specific things to note here.
#1: Rama makes several parries with the arm holding the knife, and it makes more sense to call these Karate or Judo parries rather than Knife parries.
#2: Several times throughout the fight, Rama makes torso hits with the Tonfa that seem to stun his opponents. It is more likely these are vitals hits as it’s tough to make a case that all of the stunning hits generate enough damage to be considered Major Wounds. You can target the Vitals with crushing attacks, per MA:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GURPS Martial Arts
Vitals: Crushing attacks can target the “vitals” – e.g., the solar plexus from in front or the kidneys from behind – at -3. Wounding modifier is only x1, but shock requires a HT roll for knockdown, at -5 if a major wound.
Rama’s Tonfa strikes do Sw or Thr cr, so some of these hits might be MWs, but many will not be. Improved ST and/or Striking ST would go a long way towards enabling Rama to regularly cause MWs with the Tonfa hit and unarmed hits.
The Armed Grapple is at -2, and another -1 for targeting the leg. He makes one other grapple with the Tonfa, so this might make the case for Armed Grapple being improved. However, a Tonfa skill of 16 or better removes the need for an improved technique.
The Knife attacks are basically a thrust following by a cut, and would be at a -2. Easy enough and any CP from the leg grapple could be spent to reduce the -2, or add some damage.]



Timestamp: 0:25
3rd BG (gray shirt) attacks w/pipe AoA
Rama Parries with Knife<Karate>
Performs disarm with knife
Tonfa hit to the stomach (vitals?) and Tonfa hit to the knee (joint)

[Camera angle makes it difficult to see everything that is going on, but a few things are clear. Rama parries the attack from the outside and locks the arm with his knife. This might be a grabbing Parry and then a Disarm, or a normal Parry, then an Armed Grapple, followed by a Disarm. In fact, the “disarm” might just be a cutting attack on the hand/arm with the knife, spending CP from the grapple for damage or to remove the penalty for the hit location. Also, the entire set takes about 2 seconds, so there is enough time for the Knife grapple/disarm to happen on a separate turn from the Tonfa hits. Speaking of Tonfa hits, we see vitals and knee strikes again, further strengthening the case for a bought up TA.]


Timestamp: 0:29
4th BG (white bandana) attacks w/hatchet AoA
Rama performs a Stop Hit w/Tonfa
Rama then uses the Tonfa for a grapple (Hook) and pulls the BG in for a Knife attack to the throat
BG is stunned then Rama performs a push-kick


[In this scene, it’s pretty evident that Rama is performing the grapple at Reach 1, so it has to be an application of the HOOK technique as Armed Grapple requires both parties be in close combat. However, this creates a problem. The Hook Technique defaults to -5, and hooking the neck/head is another -5, for a total penalty of -10. Since the BG used AoA, Rama can do this telegraphically, but, that still leaves him with a -6 to hit…pretty steep and only a 50% chance of success if he is at Skill 16. AoA (D) is an option here, as it would lower the penalty to a more manageable -2. That is an easier pill to swallow as we do not see Rama perform any more HOOK attacks with the Tonfa for the rest of the fight. Since the maneuver is AoA (D), the Knife thrust to the Neck gets a +4 as well, and brings the penalty down to -1, which is very manageable. Any CP gained by the HOOK attack is likely translated into damage via the GRAB & SMASH rules. One other comment here…if you watch closely (at 0:30), the camera shows the tonfa handle hooking the badguy’s shoulder, not his neck. Hitting the Torso with a hook is much easier (-5 vs -10), but then you’d have to get the GM to cut you some slack on using CP from that grapple on the Knife to the throat attack.]
EskrimadorNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 11:19 AM   #3
EskrimadorNC
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Default Re: The Raid: Redemption, a Technical Grappling Analysis

Timestamp: 0:36
5th BG (black tank) attacks twice w/machete AoA: Double
Rama parries w/Tonfa
Rama then hits BG in stomach (vitals?) w/tonfa (crits?)


[Here is that stunning Tonfa shot again. This time the BG is not only stunned, but falls prone. This might be a crit, as most of Rama’s stunning attacks do not outright drop his foes prone. Before the next badguy attacks, you can see Rama change the Tonfa to a reverse grip. He switches his Tonfa grip several times throughout the fight, indicating a fairly high Tonfa skill.]


Timestamp: 0:38
6th BG (yellowish gray shirt) attacks twice w/machete AoA Double
Rama parries with Tonfa and then parries again with his knife arm
Rama then hits BG in chest w/tonfa and
Follows up with an armed grapple(knife) to the neck and then a throat cut (rapid strike?)


[It looks like the Tonfa attack stuns, then there is a short gap of time before Rama performs the neck grapple and then throat cut. Trying to do all that in 1 second is doable, but tough as the rapid strike penalties for the Grapple and throat cut would make them both unlikely to hit. This attack sequence takes about 2 seconds, so it’s probably safer to assume that the Tonfa attack and the Knife Grapple/Knife attack happen on separate turns.]

Timestamp: 0:41
5th BG (black tanktop) is back up again and AoAs w/machete
Rama parries with Tonfa and counters with knife to the face
Then follows up with kick to the face


[Rama does quite a few kicks to the face and never misses or loses his balance. That is plenty of justification for improved Kicking, and TA Karate Kick/Face. Also, in spite of the spinning motion, I would not call this a Spinning Kick technique. This looks more like a Committed Attack (Strong) or All Out Attack (Strong). The AoA nets Rama Thr+5 cr (Kicking = thr, +2 for high Karate, +2 for AoA(S), +1 for Boots). That pretty much guarantees a Major Wound to the face, and Stunning/KD is at -5. Very effective when it lands, and here it did. Also note that the knife slash seems to be superficial, so you are probably looking at minimum rolled damage.]

Timestamp: 0:44
7th BG (white shirt) AoA double with Machete
Rama parries both with Tonfa and goes AoD


[Rama generally counters after an AoA, but facing two armed opponents, he decides to be careful and piles on the defense.]
EskrimadorNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 11:42 AM   #4
EskrimadorNC
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Default Re: The Raid: Redemption, a Technical Grappling Analysis

Timestamp: 0:45
7th and 8th BG (blue shirt) Attack with machetes
WS does AoA Double, BS does AoA Determined/Strong
Rama parries all 3 attacks
Hits WS in stomach (vitals?) with tonfa
BS does AoA
Rama ducks (dodges) and stabs BS in the stomach (vitals?) and hits him in the head with the Tonfa


[The TA Tonfa swing/Head shows up again, as does the TA Tonfa swing/vitals. Rama always makes sure he hits something vital. This principle shows up many times throughout not just this fight, but the whole movie. Some of the maneuver/tactical choices he makes are sub-optimal from a GURPS mechanics standpoint, but all fit well with the ebb and flow of fights they are used in. In a real fight, people rarely make optimal choices for every attack/defense.]

Timestamp: 0:48
WS does machete AoA double, low (at legs?) then high
Rama dodges the low shot then parries with the knife <karate?>
Rama then uses the knife to attack WS's torso and weapon arm, then follows up with a Tonfa <karate?> strike to the neck.


[Again, we see Rama use his knife arm, but not the knife blade, to parry. Because the 3 following attacks happen very quickly, and the fact that even with Extra Attack 1, Rama would need to rapid strike with the knife to get all the hits in, I’m going say that these three are Telegraphic Attacks. The two knife attacks don’t look particularly telegraphic, but you can tell that Rama chambers the tonfa for the throat punch well in advance of throwing it. That also removes the need of giving Rama astronomically high skills, and Telegraphic Attacks would indeed be commonplace in GURPS for players to use against foes that AoA. So we have TG Rapid Strike Knife/Torso (-2), TG Rapid Strike Knife/Arm (-4), and Extra Attack TG Tonfa(Karate) thrust to the neck (-1). A Knife skill of 16 will give Rama a 74% chance of hitting the arm on a telegraphic rapid strike, so that seems to be in the acceptable range. The Tonfa in reverse grip does Thr cr damage +bonus for high Karate skill, x1.5 for hitting the neck is likely enough to cause a MW and force a KD/Stun roll, which the bad guy obviously fails.]

Timestamp: 0:54
9th BG does an AoA thrust w/machete
Rama parries w/tonfa
Rama follows w/knife to face and kick to the knee


[We see a couple of Rama’s favorite moves again here. The Knife cut to the face and Kick to the knee show up a few items, and he lands them accurately enough to make a case for improved TA techniques for both. In a normal GURPS game, these would be thrown as Telegraphic Attacks since the foe cannot defend, and that would mitigate most of the penalties for targeting the face/knee (-5 for both). However, the attacks themselves do not look Telegraphic, so I have a hard time assigning them as such. 8 points spent on TA Knife/Face and TA Kick/Knee would put Rama at a -2, and keep the attacks inside a believable range for success.]

Timestamp: 0:57
10th BG comes around the corner and does AoA w/machete
Rama parries w/knife<karate>
Rama hits BG #10 in the face w/tonfa
Rama then moves in and performs a grapple
BG is stunned so must DO NOTHING
Rama throws a knee to the Torso (Grab N Smash) and then does Kiss the Wall targeting the BG’s Face

[Rama’s Tonfa strikes to the face are a common way for him to force a HT roll vs stunning. 6+ dmg will likely be common, so that means -5 on HT checks to avoid stun/prone on 10HP foes. It’s apparent that these hits consistently stun their targets. The grapple can be considered an armed grapple because Rama is armed, though as a GM, I would allow a Judo grapple if performed the way Rama performs it. Either way (Armed or Judo), it’s an easy (torso) grapple vs. a foe that cannot defend. In Martial Arts, it’s pretty explicit that Kiss the Wall is done with Wrestling, Sumo Wrestling, or DX, but not Judo. I would be reticent to give Rama points in Wrestling or Sumo Wrestling, though he does do Kiss the Wall more than once. As a GM, I would allow a perk where Kiss the Wall can be performed with Judo. Also, I would expect that much of the CP accumulated on the Grapple is spent to lower the hit location penalties for ramming the bad guy’s face into the wall.]

Timestamp: 1:01
11th BG does AoA to Rama's head
Rama ducks (dodges)
Rama hits BG twice in the torso with Tonfa (swing)
BG is stunned so must DO NOTHING
Rama then hits him in the leg (joint?) with the knife
Rama finishes by hitting BG #11 in the face w/tonfa (butt jab)


[The first two Tonfa hits are not aimed at the Vitals, but they do enough damage to force a HT check and stunning. It’s possible that neither of those two hits are major wounds, but the combined damage is enough to put the BG into negative HP and force a HT because of that. Then we have the knife to the knee (2nd time this fight) and Tonfa to the face. Those are some favorites of Rama, and again a good indication that Rama has improved TA for those strikes.]
EskrimadorNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 11:45 AM   #5
EskrimadorNC
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Default Re: The Raid: Redemption, a Technical Grappling Analysis

Timestamp: 1:04
12th BG does AoA double w/machete
Rama parries both shots
Knife thrust BG in the chest
Then Knife thrust BG in the neck


[This is relatively simple and straight-forward, though the knife thrust to the neck will be at a steep penalty (-5). Given the bag guy’s AoA maneuver, Rama could have made the next stab Telegraphic in order to make it at -1 instead of -5. Again, based on what the footage shows, the neck strike is fast and is not lined up well in advance, so there is a good case for at least a little improved TA. Knife skill 17 would largely obviate the need for improved TA, though that is a pretty high skill with the knife. It would also make the many knife strikes to the knee much reliable without telegraphic attack and/or TA.]

Timestamp: 1:08
13th BG AoA Double (Machete swing and Kick)
Rama parries both w/tonfa
Rama strikes BG’s left leg(knee?) w/tonfa
Rama stabs BG's leg (thrust) w/knife
And then cuts it out (swing) w/knife


[The Tonfa knee strike may not have crippled the BG’s leg, but it at least did enough damage to force a posture change to kneeling. There aren’t specific rules for this in MA/TG, but it’s something the GM can call an audible on, especially with the follow-up Rama has in mind. The Knife thrust is pretty clearly Telegraphic, and the Thrust->Cut Out looks like a Rapid Strike. The entire sequence takes a couple of seconds, so you can make a case for not needing to make a Rapid Strike, especially if Rama has Extra Attack 1.]

Timestamp: 1:12
Rama goes on the offensive and throws a tonfa attack
BG #14 parries and crits, forcing Rama to drop his tonfa
BG then goes AoA(D) w/elbow to head
Rama misses his parry and gets hit in the head
Rama takes shock penalty, so goes on AoD


[Special note: Prior to this point in the fight, all of Rama’s attacks have been against foes that have either performed an AoA or have been stunned with no defense. This is the first time initiates an attack against a ready foe, who manages to parry it without retreating. The BG crits on his parry and forces Rama to roll on the critical miss table. The result of the roll is a dropped Tonfa. What’s worse for Rama is that he misses a parry on the BG’s follow up elbow to the head. On Rama’s turn, he is suffering a shock penalty from the hit to the head, so he decides to go AoD to give himself an opportunity to recover.]

BG#14 then AoA: doubles w/machete at Rama
Rama dodges the first attack and parries the 2nd
Rama then punches BG#14 in the stomach (uppercut to the Vitals?), changes position and grapples the arm/hand.
Rama then maintains the grapple and stabs the BG twice in the torso.
BG is stunned so must DO NOTHING
Rama then does AoA Strong with a knee to BG#14's torso

[There are 4 separate offensive actions that happen here, so it makes the most sense to break them up across two separate turns. The Uppercut to the vitals stuns, and then the arm grapple provides CP. The BG is stunned so doesn’t act and fails his health check again at the end of his turn so he can’t effectively defend. Then Rama performs the two Knife attacks to the torso from the side arc. The 1-handed grapple likely doesn’t inflict enough CP to make the bag guy unable to act, so we just assume Major Wounds from the knife attacks and continuous failed HT checks to avoid/recover from Stun. It looks like Rama dumps all of his CP from the grapple into damage from the knee strike, causing a major wound and knocking the BG down.]

Timestamp: 1:44
BG#15 throws a low kick
Rama performs leg parry and counterattacks
With kick (push kick?) to BG's torso

[The leg parry could very well be a Jam. Rama does this at least one other time in the hallway fight. Dealing with two opponents on opposite sides of him, it makes sense to choose a move that buys him some time, so a Push Kick makes sense here. Although, Rama is probably skill/strong enough to inflict a Major Wound with a normal kick and just drop his foe. Also, we don’t see the use of Extra Attack in this bit.]

Timestamp: 1:45
BG#16 throws an AoA kick at Rama
Rama Parries and throws an elbow at BG's torso (vitals?)
Rama then lines up for a knife attack


[Here we see Rama doing what seems to be Telegraphic Attacks. The Elbow (Punch) to the BG’s vitals has a significant wind-up, and the +4 from TG makes the vitals an easy target. The large over-head motion for the knife attack certainly looks like a TG, though it never gets to that point.]
EskrimadorNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 11:49 AM   #6
EskrimadorNC
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Default Re: The Raid: Redemption, a Technical Grappling Analysis

Timestamp: 1:46
BG#15 is back and does a, AoA grapple on Rama's knife arm
Rama breaks the grapple (Break Free)
And then hits BG#15 in the head with an elbow (stun?)


[This one is very straight forward. BG #15 grapple’s Rama’s arm before he can initiate a knife attack. The attack comes from Rama’s rear arc, so he doesn’t get any opportunity to defend. The attack lands, but It looks like a mediocre grapple, so the CP accumulation is probably pretty low (maybe 1-2 CP). Rama makes an attack to break-free. The BG did an AoA on the grapple, so cannot defend the break free attack. We haven’t established Rama’s Judo skill yet, but it is likely he is in the DX+4 range, which by TG would give him a Trained ST of 13, and 1d for CP. Assuming we aren’t using the Quick&Dirty or Cranking it Up switches, the average roll should be enough to remove all of the CPs of the grapple. Rama does break free successfully, and then uses his Extra Attack to throw an elbow (punch) at BG#15’s Face. That strike MAY be a TG attack, which would reduce the penalty to hit the head from -5 to -1. Rama hits, and does 1d to the face. Any damage forces a stun check, though Rama would need to roll max damage here to get a MW and force the check to be at -5. It takes BG#15 about 2 seconds to shake it off and he reengages on the 3rd second, so a STUN does seem more likely, but I will just attribute that to a botched HT roll rather than a MW. Rama is lucky here…this fight would have quickly gotten worse had the BG made the HT roll and been able to reengage more quickly.]

Timestamp: 1:49
BG#16 is back and throws an AoA low kick at Rama
Rama performs a Jam on BG#16's leg
Rama then stabs him in clavicle (vitals?) with the knife


[This time it is very clear that Rama performs a Jam on the BG’s low kick. Based on the footage it looks like Rama actually Jam’s the BG’s foot. The attack roll to hit the foot is only a -2 in this case, and Rama is skilled enough to easily eat that and still have a high degree of success. Dmg is Thr -3, for a base of 1d-4. If you add the +2 for High Karate and +1 for heavy boots, the dmg is 1d-1. That’s not great, but has a 50% chance to cripple the foot on a 10HP foe. I am going to say that Rama rolls well enough to cripple the foot as it forces the BG to change posture to kneeling. We see that affect more than once in this fight, so it seems to be the convention in this movie rather than a crippled limb dropping a person prone. As for the knife attack, I have no problem as a GM ruling the clavicle stab as a Vitals hit. This, along with the crippled foot, results in plenty enough damage to take BG#16 out of the fight.]

Timestamp: 1:51
BG#15 is back and AoA (s) grapples Rama's torso from behind
Rama cannot defend so is grappled.
BG#15 drags Rama a ways down the hall


[This bit is a lot harder to shoehorn into mechanics because you are dealing with a lot of Cinematic Conventions. The AoA (S) torso grapple from behind makes sense. Rama cannot defend, and it looks like the BG gets a decent amount of CP, especially with help from the AoA (S). There is really nothing in GURPS rules here that would cause Rama to lose his grip on the knife, but the director wants him to fight unarmed, so that’s how he gets there. Also, there is no tactical reason for the BG to drag Rama down the hall; it is done simply to improve the camera angle so the audience can see the fight better.]

Timestamp: 1:56
Rama leans forward making an attempt to break free.
It’s unclear if this is successful, but even if it is, BG#15 still retains some CP
BG#15 Forces Rama back to standing straight with another AoA Grapple


[So once they stop moving, Rama attempts to break free of the grapple. He is at a -4 because his opponent is in his rear arc (TG pg11). Even if this attack succeeds, it’s obvious that some CP remains and Rama is still grappled. The BG then performs another AoA (S) and likely replaces the CP Rama removed with his Break Free Attempt.]


Timestamp: 1:57
Still Grappled, Rama throws two elbows to BG#15's torso
BG#15 cannot defend so takes the hits.
BG tries to improve grapple, AoAs to counter shock penalties


[The elbow attacks make sense here as Rama can throw them to a target behind him with only a -2 (or -0 if improved tech). He likely also suffers another -1 or -2 from active control, depending on how many CPs his foe has accumulated. Since the BG did an AoA, Rama throws these as TG attacks, mitigating the penalties to hit. Both elbows connect doing a reasonable amount of damage. Considering that BG#15 previous took an elbow strike to the head, he is probably hovering around 1/3rd HP, which means he is at ½ Move/Dodge. He is also suffering a Shock Penalty on his turn. The BG attempts another AoA (D) to try and increase CP to mitigate the Shock Penalties. ]

Timestamp: 1:58
Still grappled, Rama throws another elbow
Followed-up by a judo grab of BG's head/arm
BG AoAs to break free and fails

[The 3rd elbow strike likely puts the BG into negative HP, but he seems to pass his HT check as he doesn’t immediately fall prone. Rama then performs a grapple. At my first take, it looks like Rama actually grapples BG#15’s head. Indeed he does that, but on further inspection of the footage, Rama ALSO grapples BG#15’s Arm. Adjudicating the Head Grapple is problematic because of the requirement for a Wild Swing and the low chance of success. However, if we rule that the “head grapple” isn’t really a head grapple but just the fluff part of the ARM grapple for the Judo throw, then things become much more manageable. Per TG p11 under “Side Arc” it specifically mentions that if limbs are wrapped around you, they are in your front arc and can be grappled at no additional penalty. This means that Rama only suffers a -1 for grappling the Arm, and maybe a -1 or -2 for active control penalties. Rama can offset these with a TG attack or even an AoA. Note that Rama maintains the grapple on BG#15’s arm after the throw, so he doesn’t spend all of his CPs on the throw. Also, in this scene the BG doesn’t seem to get an attack to break free as the throw happens immediately after the grapple, but we have to insert this maneuver in here in order to keep the flow in line with GURPS combat.]
EskrimadorNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 11:52 AM   #7
EskrimadorNC
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Default Re: The Raid: Redemption, a Technical Grappling Analysis

Timestamp: 1:59
Rama performs an offensive Judo throw
Rama then performs an ARM LOCK on BG#15’s arm
BG #15 is stunned and must DO NOTHING


[BG#15 cannot defend against Rama’s Judo Throw, so he falls prone. He very likely fails his HT check and is stunned from the throw. Rama maintains his grapple, probably reserving all CP accumulated to use on his next turn. He then performs an Arm Lock on BG#15. BG#15 cannot defend, so Rama succeeds easily and accumulates more CP. BG#15’s arm is locked and he is stunned, and so must DO NOTHING on his turn.]

Timestamp: 2:00
Rama inflicts damage on BG#15’s locked arm
He then follows up with a Stamp Kick to the face
Likely, some CP from the grapple is used on face k
ick

[Per TG p38, Rama can, as a free action, inflict damage on BG#15’s arm. Twice the CP spent sets the upper bounds of damage, so Rama will spend 3 CP as it only takes 6 damage to cripple the arm, and CP spent on damage from a lock count double. Rama then rolls a QC of his Trained ST vs. BG#15’s Trained ST, and damage is Rama’s MOS, capped at 6. It’s not apparent that the damage cripples the arm, so we can extrapolate that Rama’s victory in the QC is less than 6 points. Rama then follows up with a Stamp Kick to BG#15’s Face. Rama has a host of penalties to deal with. The Stamp Kick (MA pg 80-81) technique defaults to Karate -3. We don’t see Rama do this often, so there is no real case for it being improved beyond the default. Per MA pg 99, attacking the face of a kneeling or sitting man is -4 instead of -5. It doesn’t specifically mention kicking the face of a prone man, but it’s not a stretch to think that it applies in this case. So Rama is looking at a -7 to Stamp Kick BG#15’s face. He likely removes -3 to -5 in penalties with the expenditure of his remaining CP, making the stamp kick much more manageable. BG#15, who is already at negative HP, takes a crap-ton of damage to the face. Yeah, he is done.]

Timestamp: 2:03
BG#17 (Black Shirt) throws a punch at Rama
Rama parries, then goes AoD


[Rama goes full defense here, likely because he sees the two foes (Black Shirt and Red Shirt) closing in and is playing the odds. Also note that Black shirt’s punch doesn’t look like an AoA, so Rama is less keen to attempt a counter as BS can still defend.]


Timestamp: 2:04
BG#17 (Black Shirt) then does AoA double with Punch then elbow
Rama dodges punch then parries the elbow
Rama then counters with a punch to the face


[Black Shirt leads with an AoA (Double), and this gives Rama the opportunity for an uncontested counter. His punch to the face lands in spite of the -5 penalty. The punch is quick with no wind-up so it is unlikely a TG attack. Rama punches foes in the face several more times, so there is a case for improved TA Karate punch/face. BS falls prone, so is likely stunned, though the damage is probably not enough for a Major Wound. Also note that BS falls far enough away after the face hit that he is out of Rama’s reach, and Red Shirt hasn’t arrived yet, so Rama is denied the use of his Extra Attack here.]


Timestamp: 2:05
BG#18 (RS) does an AoA(D), Telegraphic punch @ Rama’s face
Rama parries the punch
Rama then performs a Torso grapple
Followed up by a knee to the torso (vitals?)


[Rama likes applications of Grab and Smash and he does it here as well as several other times during this fight. Here, he performs a grapple after the parry and throw’s a Knee at RS’s torso, burning all accumulated CP on damage (likely 3 – 4 points). This puts the knee strike at Thr+3 or Thr+4, easily inside the realm of causing a Major Wound. Another possibility is that Rama’s knee targets the vitals, which would force the HT roll to be at -5 if damage is a MW. It doesn’t quite look like a vitals shot, though. Most likely, Red Shirt simply failed his HT check and is stunned.]

Timestamp: 2:06
BG#17 is back and throws a punch (attack maneuver)
Rama parries the punch and throws an elbow
BG#17 dodges the elbow and performs a sideslip


[Here is the 2nd case where Rama throws an attack at a foe that is able to defend and does so successfully. This means that while Rama’s skill is probably pretty high, it’s not so high that he can regularly take large Deceptive Attack penalties in order to insure a failed defense. Indeed, his MO is to play defense in hopes of provoking an AoA, and then countering on a foe that cannot defend. The Sideslip dodge gives Black Shirt a +2 bonus on his dodge. Likely his dodge nets at a 10, or 11 if his punch was a defensive attack. He dodges and changes position.]

Timestamp: 2:07
BG#17 throws an AoA (D) backfist at Rama’s face
Rama Parries the backfist
Rama then performs an AoA (D) head grapple
And follows up with a knee to the face


[Rama’s grapple is actually in two distinct locations. His right hand is grappling BS’s right arm, and his left hand grapples BS’s head. I will rule this as a head grapple since the requirements for Grab and Smash are that you can only strike a location that you have grappled. Since Rama’s next attack is a knee to the face, his grapple must be to the face/head as well. I rule this as an AoA (D) maneuver because after it is over, Rama is unable to defend BG#18’s Slam attack. It also helps offset the head grapple (-2) and Knee to the face (-6) penalties. The Knee to the face is normally -6, but Rama throws enough knees that we have a good case for improving the Knee Strike technique to max. Accumulated CP will be dumped into damage. I’d also like to note that visually, Rama’s grapple forces BG#17 into a kneeling posture, which would lower the TA Knee/Face penalty to -4. However, doing that mechanically in GURPS would require either Extra Attack 2 (we don’t see enough evidence of that elsewhere) or a Rapid Strike for a -6 on both the Grapple and the Knee strike. I would treat this as merely a fluff effect, and make Rama perform the knee strike at full penalty. Regardless, the damage is likely high enough to force a HT check, and possibly cause a MW. BG#17 clearly falls prone after the knee to the face, so a failed HT roll can be assumed.]
EskrimadorNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 11:52 AM   #8
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: The Raid: Redemption, a Technical Grappling Analysis

Quote:
Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC View Post
inspired by TG's writer Douglas Cole's "Technical Natasha" blog post to do my own TG Analysis
I wish we could program an AI to do this type of thing for every single movie fight scene ever but we're probably several decades away from that type of video recognition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EskrimadorNC View Post
Rama Stabs WS’s leg with knife and then cuts down the leg [/B]
This highlights one of the situations I'd love to see special rules for.

I think somewhere in MA they just said to treat that like a rapid strike (thrust>swing) but it just feels weird because you couldn't realistically get a "swinging motion" to build up momentum with your weapon beginning inside a wound.

Plus there should probably be fewer problems making a roll to hit (perhaps just automatic like when you "Worry" after a bite?) and more problems defending against it. Those kinds of benefits could perhaps be offset by less damage (just like worries)

Watching a lot of Walking Dead lately (and remembering Goblin Slayer) more effort being needed for pulling weapons outside of wounds also is the type of gritty thing this would combine well with.

ER shows also talk about not removing impaling objects because they help plug the wound and slow blood loss (paramedic leaves it in for surgeon if possibly) so maybe this cold somehow align too: you may want to take a weapon out not just to make a new wound, but also to cause more bleeding for your foe.

IE if you have a knife already, there's still incentive to pull a knife already sticking out of an opponent, even if you're not going out of your way to cut them more on the way out, they could bleed more.

Fullers are probably mostly made to lighten weapons but I'm not convinced they picked up nicknames like "blood groove" (or "Blutrinne") without cause... could those maybe make it easier to pull swords out of deep thrusts because pressure would be exerted mostly on the thicker flats near the edge with less pressure gripping the thinner flat on the middle?

Gory TWD spoilers (NSFW) ahead...

The pause here after impaling a zombie in the skull for example is what I mean: that was a knife clearly not as immediately available for a followup stab as compared to if you hit nothing but air. A visible pause where you then see an effort to take it out.

Leverage might have something to do with this too... in a "hammer grip" like this you would have a harder time moving the knife away from the injury side (relying on bicep strength) compared to using a standard forward-thrust grip where you could use your stronger upper back muscles.

two hands would obviously help with removing a weapon from a deep wound in the same way as it would with inflicting more damage or doing a better grapple or better Break Free... here too is a good example of a brief pause and slight addition of effort in removing a weapon from the "sheath" that is a wound...

Given the "sheath" analogy, if we treat wounds like sheaths then even if you charged a "ready" to remove weapons from deep wounds, you could make that a 'free action' using the Quick-Draw skill so that expert fighters don't need to be slowed down. Also makes that skill a MUCH better investment if it's a situation that comes up a lot more often.

This could apply to swing-cut too as we see how Rick Grimes uses a push-kick to aid in removing a machete from a skull. Relative elevation seems to matter too: it's easier to pull something "up" off a wound to the top of a skull the higher up you are. That's why lowering the posture of a target would make it easier.

Of course if you do enough damage to overpenetrate this would not be a worry: if you've gone all the way through the other side of a zombie skull then it's clearly not gripping your blade anymore and you don't need to worry about followup efforts to retrieve the weapon for a followup attack.

Seems these mechanics were added to "Walking Dead: Onslaught" video game too:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steam Update
Sharp melee weapons (blades and axes) now stick inside of a Walker's skull on kill and will resist easy removal; higher quality sharp melee weapons such as the Katana and Battle Axe have the least resistance of removal.
Dead Walkers no longer automatically detach from sharp melee weapons when impaled.
While impaling a Walker with a sharp melee weapon, player movement is restricted for as long as the weapon remains stuck in the Walker.

The Knuckle Knife has been completely re-tuned to better emphasize blunt damage (two-hit punch to the head, one-hit when upgraded); the knife end is no longer an instant kill head strike but also does not stick in skulls on kill.

Choked or impaled Walker corpses have increased simulated weight, but no longer automatically fall to the floor.
As best I can tell "choked" is a term they are using to represent Armed Grappling, though I'm not sure how 'simulated weight' applies here.

AFAIK this is the only FPS type game (or maybe VG in general?) that tries to merge grappling mechanics (like we see in UFC) w/ weapon mechanics, as most video game weapon mechanics seem based purely on striking. If anyone knows of anythingelse to incorporate that I'd love to take a look as these seem like great TG-fuel, rather than needing to purely browse the fight scenes of movie/TV.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 11:59 AM   #9
EskrimadorNC
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Default Re: The Raid: Redemption, a Technical Grappling Analysis

Timestamp: 2:09
BG#18 performs a (Move & Attack) slam attack
Rama cannot defend due to the AoA (D) maneuver last turn and is hit
After the hit, Rama goes AoD


[The camera angle makes it tough to tell exactly what happened, but it seems like BG#18 (Red Shirt) performs a Slam Attack on Rama. This likely does at least 1 point of damage and Rama decides to go AoD because he doesn’t want to bother striking with a Shock Penalty]

Timestamp: 2:10
BG#18 performs AoA Double punches
Rama parries both hits
Rama goes AoD again


[Over the next two seconds, BG#18 throws 4 haymaker punches before Rama responds. I call these two cases of Rama going AoD, even though there is no tactical reason to do so. Again the reason here is “fight choreography” and “what looks good on the screen”.]

Timestamp: 2:11
BG#18 performs AoA double punches again
Rama parries both hits
Rama then counters with a punch (uppercut?) to the stomach (vitals?)


[Rama’s counter attack happens so fast, it is hard catch even on 25% speed. However, it is clear that it temporarily stuns BG#18. A simple punch to the torso from Rama is unlikely to force a HT roll for. However, if we call his punch an Uppercut, and have it target the Vitals, he forces a HT check no matter how much damage is rolled, and Rama now has a good chance of causing a MW. AoA(Strong) is another possibility that makes a MW almost guaranteed but is very risky in the event it misses.]

Timestamp: 2:12
BG#18 is stunned from punch to stomach (vitals)
Rama performs a grapple of BG's torso
Rama throws a knee to BG's torso (vitals?)


[Here is that knee to the vitals again. If Rama generates enough CP on the torso grapple, he automatically forces another HT check for Stunning. Also, this likely puts BG#18 into negative HP. Grab and Smash FTW.]

Timestamp: 2:13
BG#18 is still stunned
Rama makes an attack to shift grips and grapple the head
Rama then performs a Kiss the wall, TA: Head
*Rama smashes the BG's head into the wall several more times, but after the 1st hit, it is pretty obvious that the BG is done and not resisting


[Rama actually switches the grapple from the torso to the head. This is an attack, and the CPs will carry over. The penalty is -2, and easy to absorb. Kiss the Wall targeting the head is the follow-up, and I would allow this under Judo (with a perk). Some of the CPs will be spent to lower the TA penalty, and the rest will go into damage. This will likely cause enough damage to inflict a major wound and put the already wounded BG#18 out of the fight.]

Timestamp: 2:18

Rama gets a breather
EskrimadorNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2020, 12:46 PM   #10
EskrimadorNC
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Default Re: The Raid: Redemption, a Technical Grappling Analysis

Analysis of Rama

While Rama is an extremely capable (and probably lucky as well) fighter, I don't think you need a ton of Cinematic options turned on to make a character be able to fight like this.

Most of Rama's opposition launches All Out Attacks, and are unable to defend against his inevitable counter attacks. Most often, Rama could (should?) be responding with Telegraphic Attacks, further reducing the need for exceedingly high skill and dozens of points of improved techniques.

If we also use Peter Del'Orto's Modified Mook Rules, we can easily get the sort of results we see on the screen.

As for Rama's stats, here's what I feed make the most sense, given the setting (nothing supernatural or Super Hero-ish) and the performance:

ST 11 (5'6", 143 lbs) [10]
-You can make a case for Striking ST 1 or 2 without much trouble, especially considering how many of his hits stun the bad guys.

DX 12 [40]
-Mostly because this is where GURPS Martial Arts puts most of the Martial Artist templates at without being cinematic.

Advantages:
Combat Reflexes [15]
Extra Attack 1 (probably w/Multiattack) [25/30]
Striking ST 1 or 2(likely) [5/10]
OHWT (Knife) [1]
Kiss The Wall defaults to Judo [1]
*Targeted Attack Karate Punch/Face: Skill -2 [4]
Kicking: Full Skill [2]
Knee Strike: Full Skill: [1]
*Targeted Attack Karate Kick/Face: Skill -2 [4]
*Targeted Attack Tonfa Swing/Leg Joint: Skill -2 [4]
*Targeted Attack Tonfa Swing/Vitals: Skill -1 [3]
*Targeted Attack Tonfa Swing/Face: Skill -2 [4]
*Targeted Attack Knee Strike/Vitals: Skill -1 [3]


-There are probably a few others, but these are noticeably on display.


*Note, you can do away with all of the Targeted Attack techniques if we take the approach that Rama was mostly throwing Telegraphic attacks after defending a Foe's AoA.

Skills:
Karate: 16 (DX+4) [20]
-Karate Punch (ST 11): 1d cr
-Karate Kick w/Boots (ST 11): 1d+2 cr
-Karate Knee Strike (ST 11): 1d+1 cr

Judo: 16 (DX+4) [20]

Tonfa: 16 (DX+4) [16]

Knife: 17 (DX+5) [16]

So we have a character that is a little over 200 points of pure combat skill. I would probably built him with ST 12 and Striking ST 1, and likely drop most of the Targeted Attack buy-ups.

If you are playing with either the Quick and Dirty or Cranking it Up switches from Technical Grappling, you can leave his ST at 11 and dump pretty much all of the TA techniques. Rama will use ample CP to offset hit location penalties and low striking damage.
EskrimadorNC is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
martial arts, technical grappling

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.