Technomagic munchkinism at its finest...

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

Nowhere in the description does it say batteries are exempt.

I'd say you need to go back and do a thorough reading of the technomagic spells again.

Since the spell reqiures an active power source, batteries are out as they are power storage devices.

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

The TL is based on existing GURPS rules for high-tech equipment. The Gallant H-90 is a personal particle beam, which means the REF is operating at at least TL11. The Masters were also using particle beams, which makes them TL11 as well. The Zentraedi I've been calling TL10 in keeping with their more primitive "disposable" equipment. The Invid are more advanced than the REF and Masters, so they get TL12.

Adding superscience doesn't change the underlying TL. It just means superscience is available at that TL. In any case, no mecha I've specifically mentioned USES FTL drives, so your claims of them "throwing off the TL scale" is merely a dodge. You'd have a case if I was using the YF-19 or YF-21 from Macross Plus.

Quibbling over whether it's TL7+4, 8+3 or 11 doesn't change the fact they all work out to TL11.

In any case, you can always change the enchanter's TL. It isn't like the enchanter HAS to be from a specific world. This really is a sad, nitpicky gripe.

Actually the TL modifier makes all the difference. TL 11 is not the same as any combination of TLx+y which adds up to 11. It's not nit-picking. You determined the setting, and protoculture technology a'la Robotech doesn't include Magic.

I'm basing it on eyball estimates of the power used by the Alpha and Cyclones. A Cyclone has a peak power output of 98hp, and a single cell gives it 100 hours operational use. IF that's 98 horses for 100 hours (which I doubt), a single cell provides about 7.3MWH. If an Alpha is cranking 1.5 megawatts (based on the drivetrain required to move a 20-ton vehicle at 120kph/77mph according to VE2), and 16 cells give it 250 hours of operation (again, assuming the full output scenario for a Cyclone), each cell is supplying 23MWH maximum. I'd say 5MWH for a single cell is pretty supportable from the Cyclone, and something like 10MWH would work for the Alpha.

Actually (for GURPS uses) if you are referencing the energy from a protoculture cell in MWH (kWh, etc), it's a battery and therefore not able to be used with Conduct or Draw Power (unless house-ruled by a GM). Now if you want to claim that a protoculture cell is an active power source, then you need to determine maximum output, fuel consumption and fuel storage (or as in the case of some nuclear fuel examples from the old GURPS vehicles, an operational time between refueling). Either way, if you use Create Fuel or Essential Fuel to provide the needed fuel, you can't tap any energy from it by using any other Energy spell*.

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

Reading comprehension is key here.

I'd be careful with the insuating insults if I were you. It doesn't help your position and is more likely to have the regulars here deciding to ignore you, or worse, mercilessly pick apart your posts for any little error possible and point those errors out.

* though this now makes the Cube of Power from Magic Items 3 unusable, unless we are to consider it uses some form of variant of the listed spells.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

Nope. Protoculture cells are active power sources, specifically generators. Reading comprehension is key here.

It is rather you. Who need to read up What GURP defined as anactive power source [see cccweb's post] also the fact I gave you in out buth in the quoted text, and a hint which part the quoted text had the out. if you try to munkin instead of power game I'm not going to hand you your outs on a silver plater

[Kaldrin]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

I'd be careful with the insuating insults if I were you. It doesn't help your position and is more likely to have the regulars here deciding to ignore you, or worse, mercilessly pick apart your posts for any little error possible and point those errors out.

I'm way ahead of you. My reading comprehension might be a little low, but I understand when people aren't willing to listen to reasonable arguments on a subject.

[Tiger Maggot]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Since the spell reqiures an active power source, batteries are out as they are power storage devices.

Which Protoculture cells are NOT. They are generators. As I've shown.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Actually the TL modifier makes all the difference. TL 11 is not the same as any combination of TLx+y which adds up to 11. It's not nit-picking. You determined the setting, and protoculture technology a'la Robotech doesn't include Magic.

I specified the setting as IW, not Robotech. Reread the original post.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Actually (for GURPS uses) if you are referencing the energy from a protoculture cell in MWH (kWh, etc), it's a battery and therefore not able to be used with Conduct or Draw Power (unless house-ruled by a GM). Now if you want to claim that a protoculture cell is an active power source, then you need to determine maximum output, fuel consumption and fuel storage (or as in the case of some nuclear fuel examples from the old GURPS vehicles, an operational time between refueling). Either way, if you use Create Fuel or Essential Fuel to provide the needed fuel, you can't tap any energy from it by using any other Energy spell*.

The cells have a variable output (just like any other generator -- just because it can generate X kilowatts doesn't mean it has to run flat-out all the time), as shown by various pieces of equipment. The MWH figure refers to the total energy contained.

As for the Create Fuel problem, you can get around that by bringing a cell with you. They're only about the size of a big coffee can,

Originally Posted by cccwebs

I'd be careful with the insuating insults if I were you. It doesn't help your position and is more likely to have the regulars here deciding to ignore you, or worse, mercilessly pick apart your posts for any little error possible and point those errors out.

If this kid wasn't spouting off in barely-comprehensible comments, and ignoring already stated points, I wouldn't comment on his apparent lack of reading comprehension.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

have the regulars here deciding to ignore you, or worse, mercilessly pick apart your posts for any little error possible and point those errors out.

In other words, they'll resort to mindless nitpicking, which seems to be the best some of you are capable of. Oh noes. From what I've seen of some of the regulars, I'd rather they DID ignore me than keep spouting some of their ridiculous rationalizations for munchkinism.

So basically, you're ignoring points I've made, then "warning" me that calling people on that kind of behavior is going to make munchkins not like me.

How about you try addressing the real point -- that in IW and other "technomagic" settings with crossworld and cross-genre travel, you can create mecha from bottlecap-sized pieces of wrechage and a portable generator? I find it hilarious that so far the objections have been mindless nitpicking which doesn't change the core point, more mindless nitpicking that violates already-published equipment rules, and variations on "I've done stuff WAY more munchkinny than that! That isn't munchkinism by comparison."

If you guys want to win this one, you have to prove this kind of technomagic isn't munchkinny, which you'll never do. You might as well try to prove a goat is a Delorean.

[Tiger Maggot]

Originally Posted by Kaldrin

I'm way ahead of you. My reading comprehension might be a little low, but I understand when people aren't willing to listen to reasonable arguments on a subject.

I listen to reasonable arguments (hence the shift from Manastone to a generator). However, mindless nitpicking is a desperation tactic, not a reasonable argument.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

I specified the setting as IW, not Robotech. Reread the original post..

We have, thats the pout the Setting thast is IW, has the laws of physics mutible from one world to the next [this is one of the reason coveyer work on one world but not another] So when you discribe the world the Mech Came from being based on Robotech, you also declared as per IW covention that the laws of physics in that world to be like those of Robotech.

further more as I'm mot a big robotech fan, I'm reling on your description of it's techs As per your desction Protocells are a more advanced fuel cell. now I do know how fewll sells work. BUT gurps defines those as storge devices, not generatoers. and cccwebs already told what you need to change in your world description to get them behave as active sources in GURPS. and I hinted what you need to do if you wanted to keep the fuel cell based, and I will now spell it out. use Steal Power/TL (M180) instead of Draw Power/TL, what more it is 20 spells easyer to cast on the Prerquaiste chain. though it does have the draw back of being "inefficent"

[Tiger Maggot]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

As per your desction Protocells are a more advanced fuel cell. now I do know how fewll sells work. BUT gurps defines those as storge devices, not generatoers.

Nope. Wrong again. Fuel cells are defined as power plants/generators in GURPS. Look it up in Vehicles.

They are no more "storage devices" than a gasoline engine is.

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

Which Protoculture cells are NOT. They are generators. As I've shown.

Personally, you haven't shown anything. If anything, since Protoculture cells are used like batteries in the Robotech settings, just casue you want to claim they are generators will not necessarily make it so.

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

I specified the setting as IW, not Robotech. Reread the original post.

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

Get yourself a TL10 mage with Create Fuel, Schematic and Rebuild. Head over to the Earth of Robotech and find a wrecked Valkyrie. After the Zentraedi Holocaust (2011), this shouldn't be a problem. She weighs in at 29,260 lbs dry. Call it 29,500 to make the math easy.

It seems you specified the Earth of Robotech, and I've never seen anything in Robotech which indicated that Magic existed.

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

The cells have a variable output (just like any other generator -- just because it can generate X kilowatts doesn't mean it has to run flat-out all the time), as shown by various pieces of equipment. The MWH figure refers to the total energy contained.

As for the Create Fuel problem, you can get around that by bringing a cell with you. They're only about the size of a big coffee can,

Yes, your Protoculture cells have a variable output, but if you still want to rate it in MWH, it's going to be a battery as far as GURPS is concerned. You need to indicate a Maximum output, and even you can't seem to decide on what the MW or MWH rating should actually be. Oh, while it may be from 3e GURPS, even the most advanced power generator available (which is a TL 16 Cosmic Power Plant for 3e, don't know which TL it'll fall under for 4e GURPS) which could provide the 31,680 kW needed for 88 FP energy would weigh 321.75 lbs and have a volume of 6.435 cf. The generator you want to use has to be able to provide the 31,680 kW (31.68 MW) in the one second needed when the casting of the spell is actually completed.

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

If this kid wasn't spouting off in barely-comprehensible comments, and ignoring already stated points, I wouldn't comment on his apparent lack of reading comprehension.

You're new here so I'll assume you don't know that rouguebfl is dyslexic (of course the whole "Dog of Lysdexics" under his name should have been a clue) and ignore that comment.

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

In other words, they'll resort to mindless nitpicking, which seems to be the best some of you are capable of. Oh noes. From what I've seen of some of the regulars, I'd rather they DID ignore me than keep spouting some of their ridiculous rationalizations for munchkinism.

So basically, you're ignoring points I've made, then "warning" me that calling people on that kind of behavior is going to make munchkins not like me.

How about you try addressing the real point -- that in IW and other "technomagic" settings with crossworld and cross-genre travel, you can create mecha from bottlecap-sized pieces of wrechage and a portable generator? I find it hilarious that so far the objections have been mindless nitpicking which doesn't change the core point, more mindless nitpicking that violates already-published equipment rules, and variations on "I've done stuff WAY more munchkinny than that! That isn't munchkinism by comparison."

If you guys want to win this one, you have to prove this kind of technomagic isn't munchkinny, which you'll never do. You might as well try to prove a goat is a Delorean.

No, it won't be mindless nit-picking. No one has ignored your posts, in fact those of us against have been very careful to point out exactly where we think your posts have errors and have even provided references as to why we feels so. So far your core point was to use a Manastone with 117 energy (which was shot down because it only has a 10% chance of surviving without a critical failure, which could be very nasty), then to switch to the idea of a generator (which actually I suggested first), then go on about how this mage would just carry around small parts to be able to create massive mecha from, when it's been pointed out repeatedly that barring house-rules is an extremely difficult task, is "munckiny", then proceed to complain because there are those of us who can poke valid holes in your munckin theory.

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

I listen to reasonable arguments (hence the shift from Manastone to a generator). However, mindless nitpicking is a desperation tactic, not a reasonable argument.

Actually, you've ignored reasonable arguments and insisted on coming up with new and improved ways to make your "munchkin" idea work.

[cccwebs]

Originally Posted by Tiger Maggot

Nope. Wrong again. Fuel cells are defined as power plants/generators in GURPS. Look it up in Vehicles.

They are no more "storage devices" than a gasoline engine is.

Vehicles p87, "An energy bank stores electrical power."

Sounds like a storage device to me, but maybe I'm having a problem with reading comprehension.

Oops, my mistake, a Fuel Cell is a powerplant. That said, a fuel cell (even at 3e TL 9) which could provide you with that 31,680 kW needed for your 88 FP spell would be 158,425 lbs and 3,168.5 cf in size. Not to mention that it'll need 3,643.2 gallons of Hydrogen for another 2,113 lbs of weight.

[Tiger Maggot]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Personally, you haven't shown anything. If anything, since Protoculture cells are used like batteries in the Robotech settings, just casue you want to claim they are generators will not necessarily make it so.

Actually, the source material (quoted from the FAQ another poster linked to) states they are generators. It isn't me saying they are, it's the source material.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

It seems you specified the Earth of Robotech, and I've never seen anything in Robotech which indicated that Magic existed.

From my original post:

This works best in IW or some other setting with easy access to alternate worlds.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Yes, your Protoculture cells have a variable output, but if you still want to rate it in MWH, it's going to be a battery as far as GURPS is concerned.

Semantical BS. I can rate a fuel tank and engine combination in terms of MWH as well by figuring out the total energy produced by that volume of fuel when run through that engine. Example: a gallon of diesel being run through a ceramic engine provides 33 1/3 KWH.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

You need to indicate a Maximum output, and even you can't seem to decide on what the MW or MWH rating should actually be.

Because the source material itself is sketchy on the subject.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Oh, while it may be from 3e GURPS, even the most advanced power generator available (which is a TL 16 Cosmic Power Plant for 3e, don't know which TL it'll fall under for 4e GURPS) which could provide the 31,680 kW needed for 88 FP energy would weigh 321.75 lbs and have a volume of 6.435 cf. The generator you want to use has to be able to provide the 31,680 kW (31.68 MW) in the one second needed when the casting of the spell is actually completed.

Protoculture is routinely described as some kind of miracle power source. Whether or not it compares favorably with some other tech is irrelevant, especially when you're playing with magic.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

You're new here so I'll assume you don't know that rouguebfl is dyslexic (of course the whole "Dog of Lysdexics" under his name should have been a clue) and ignore that comment.

Which is still no excuse for him to routinely ignore valid points, then act superior when his posts are nearly incomprehensible.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

So far your core point was to use a Manastone with 117 energy (which was shot down because it only has a 10% chance of surviving without a critical failure, which could be very nasty), then to switch to the idea of a generator (which actually I suggested first), then go on about how this mage would just carry around small parts to be able to create massive mecha from, when it's been pointed out repeatedly that barring house-rules is an extremely difficult task, is "munckiny", then proceed to complain because there are those of us who can poke valid holes in your munckin theory.

No, my core point is, using a "technomagic" background, you can create powerful mecha from little pieces of scrap. Regardless of whether it's self-powered or requires a coffee-can-sized generator, it's still munchkinny.

Originally Posted by cccwebs

Actually, you've ignored reasonable arguments and insisted on coming up with new and improved ways to make your "munchkin" idea work.

So let's see some reasonable arguments. So far I've seen ONE (the Manastove vs generator one), which I adapted to and the concept was STILL munchkinny. Other than that, it's been nothing but mindless nitpicking and "that isn't munchkinism because I like it!" BS.

You still haven't explained how someone growing a mecha from a bottle cap and a coffee can isn't munchkinny.