Parrying with a Striker, and "heavy natural weapons"

[Lupo]

I searched the forum but I found nothing directly relevant (just this and this) so I am starting a new thread...

B88 states that "You can also use [a Striker] to parry as if you had a weapon".

But, how "heavy" is considered your Striker for breakage purpose when parrying heavy weapons? And can your Striker "break", or is it completely undestructible?

I am asking this because, generally, there are limits on what you can parry...

-If unarmed, there is a great risk of dismemberment if you fail the parry roll against a high-damage attack.

-If armed, you risk to break your weapon (or you can't parry at all) if the opponent's is too heavy.

Strikers do not seem to suffer from either limitation... so apparently in DF a Lizardman can parry anything with his Tail.

I thought that may be a Striker's weight should be calculated as 1/10 of the character's ST. B376 suggests this for the reversed situation (e.g., when somebody with a weapon is parrying an unarmed attack from a very strong creature).

The problem I have with this is that 1/10 ST sucks. All but the strongest creatures would have an 'effective weight' of 1 - 1.5 lb, so they risk breakage when parrying not-so-heavy weapons such as Longswords or Maces (which would be quite strange for the aforementioned Lizardman).

Plus, I still don't know what is supposed to happen if the Striker breaks, as "automatic crippling" seems a bit too harsh, and is often harsher than getting injured from the attack.

Thinking of it, 1/10 ST is probably too low also for the "reversed" situation. For instance, according to B376, an ordinary human armed with a Longsword (4 lbs) could easily parry the punches and bites of a creature up to ST 120... that is, a huge dinosaur or a giant as tall as a 7-store building!
Even with a flimsy smallsword (1,5 lbs) he would risk breakage only facing an opponent with ST 45.
And for automatic breakage (and therefore, no parry) a Fine Longsword would need to face a weapon weighting 32 lbs, that is, a ST 320 punch.

Look at this "table":

Creature______"Punch/bite weight" equivalent to
Child______Small knife
Human______Large knife
Strong human______Smallsword
Ogre, Horse______Shortsword
Dragon_____Broadsword
White shark______Axe
Elephant______less than a Mace
48' tall giant______Morningstar, Glaive
Rukh (p. F50) ______Poleaxe
72' tall giant______Halberd

So you're at a greater risk of breakage parrying a Halberd than parrying a punch from a creature able to lift elephants!

[Crispythemighty]

I don't know if this really answers your question or not, but it may help.

Basic pg.422 and Pg. 552.

From what I understand strikers work like a limb and just takes damage on a failed parry and can become crippled.

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Crispythemighty

From what I understand strikers work like a limb and just takes damage on a failed parry and can become crippled.

A Striker can certainly become crippled if targeted by an attack... but as I wrote, B88 states that "You can also use [a Striker] to parry as if you had a weapon", and that would seem to imply that Strikers parries aren't considered "unarmed" and thus should not take damage on a failed parry.

[Kromm]

Treat strikers as weapons with weight equal to ST/10 both when parrying and being parried, just like other natural attacks. For most humans, this puts them at 1-2 lbs., which is in the realm of knives . . . which is about right for things like horns and the barb at the end of a tail.

[Crakkerjakk]

ST or HP? Seems like you'd get tangled up in Striking ST, Lifting, ST, etc. And non-ablative HP seems more solidly to represent mass.

[Crispythemighty]

Originally Posted by Lupo

A Striker can certainly become crippled if targeted by an attack... but as I wrote, B88 states that "You can also use [a Striker] to parry as if you had a weapon", and that would seem to imply that Strikers parries aren't considered "unarmed" and thus should not take damage on a failed parry.

Something like a tusk or horns or spike ball at the end of a tail, sure its not "unarmed." But as far as a tail goes, a soft, fleshy tail as a striker I would use the ruling on pg. 552.

That is just me though.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Treat strikers as weapons with weight equal to ST/10 both when parrying and being parried, just like other natural attacks. For most humans, this puts them at 1-2 lbs., which is in the realm of knives . . . which is about right for things like horns and the barb at the end of a tail.

That still doesn't clarify much about 'heaviness breakage' of the striker itself. What exactly happens if it parries a weapon/striker that is too heavy?

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Treat strikers as weapons with weight equal to ST/10 both when parrying and being parried, just like other natural attacks. For most humans, this puts them at 1-2 lbs., which is in the realm of knives . . . which is about right for things like horns and the barb at the end of a tail.

Ok.

Don't you think that ST/10 is too "light" for very strong creatures?
A quick fix could be to rule that the "weight" of natural attacks is BL/10 instead of ST/10.

Originally Posted by Molokh

That still doesn't clarify much about 'heaviness breakage' of the striker itself. What exactly happens if it parries a weapon/striker that is too heavy?

I guess they risk to be crippled (HT roll and recovery as for crippled limbs). So it's often riskier to attack with a Striker, rather than with an armored limb, especially if your enemy isn't too strong but he's using somewhat heavy weapons.