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Old 07-06-2017, 06:51 PM   #21
Anthony
 
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Default Re: [Spaceships 2] Maintenance on Cheap Ships

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Only if you pay them hourly instead of shares or salary (or if they are robots or slaves).
Either they're already working at capacity (in which case you'll have to pay to get them to overwork -- if it's even possible), or they're not (in which case you're paying for more people than you need).
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Old 07-06-2017, 07:05 PM   #22
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Default Re: [Spaceships 2] Maintenance on Cheap Ships

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Originally Posted by JMason View Post
Here is the ships (a version of this was previously posted in the Traveller forum):

And yeah, this is based on the "Hero-class" ship from T:IW
Looks like you're using RPK's Traveller Rules, using the lower fuel cost. First thing I notice is that the Hero probably qualifies as a "Mass Market Design" giving a cost multiplier of x0.75. I also get Load 402.2 (with 400 tons in the cargo hold, 2.2 tons in crew and passengers) and Occ 18+4 (18 in the cabins, 4 in lowberth). Otherwise the stats come out right with what I get.

Its Power Plant is also overpowered. It produces 2 Power Points, and only has two power using systems - the Jump Drive and the Reactionless Drive. Those don't need to be powered on at the same time, and you get $5M in savings by derating the Fusion Reactor. It could also get $3M in savings by dropping to Metallic Laminate armor and dDR 7, or $4.5M in savings by dropping to Light Alloy armor and dDR 5. Considering that this isn't a combat vessel, lacking weapons at all, it really doesn't need dDR 10.

Alternatively it could install a Half-System Advanced Metallic Laminate for $3M in savings, have dDR5, and get an extra 75 tons of cargo hold. Replace the Fusion Reactor with a Half-Sized Fusion Reactor (providing 1 Power Point) saves $5M and a half-sized Cargo Hold for 25 tons.

For another option, replace the J-2 drive with J-1 and you save $10M and replace one of the Fuel Tanks with a Cargo Hold giving 50 more tons of cargo.


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Originally Posted by JMason View Post
They have about 400t cargo. At $10 per ton, per parsec, per day (so x7), they are making 56k per jump-2 trip. Two trips per month gives them 112k, not even half of the 250k upkeep cost.
Note that those are the rates for bulk cargoes expected to travel at FTL-1. Since the ship can do FTL-2 they can deliver in half the time, so they can command premium prices for time-sensitive cargoes or to transport passengers that far that fast. The thing is, they would have to work to find those premium cargoes and passengers (especially given the quirk of Traveller Jump drives that in order to be twice as fast they have to travel twice as far in the same time instead of traveling the same distance in half the time).
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Last edited by ericbsmith; 07-06-2017 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 07-06-2017, 08:14 PM   #23
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Default Re: [Spaceships 2] Maintenance on Cheap Ships

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Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
Looks like you're using RPK's Traveller Rules, using the lower fuel cost. First thing I notice is that the Hero probably qualifies as a "Mass Market Design" giving a cost multiplier of x0.75. I also get Load 402.2 (with 400 tons in the cargo hold, 2.2 tons in crew and passengers) and Occ 18+4 (18 in the cabins, 4 in lowberth). Otherwise the stats come out right with what I get.

Its Power Plant is also overpowered. It produces 2 Power Points, and only has two power using systems - the Jump Drive and the Reactionless Drive. Those don't need to be powered on at the same time, and you get $5M in savings by derating the Fusion Reactor. It could also get $3M in savings by dropping to Metallic Laminate armor and dDR 7, or $4.5M in savings by dropping to Light Alloy armor and dDR 5. Alternatively it could install a Half-System Advanced Metallic Laminate for $3M in savings, have dDR5, and get an extra 75 tons of cargo hold.

Considering that this isn't a combat vessel, lacking weapons at all, it really doesn't need dDR 10.

Note that those are the rates for bulk cargoes expected to travel at FTL-1. Since the ship can do FTL-2 they can deliver in half the time, so they can command premium prices for time-sensitive cargoes or to transport passengers that far that fast. The thing is, they would have to work to find those premium cargoes and passengers (especially given the quirk of Traveller Jump drives that in order to be twice as fast they have to travel twice as far in the same time instead of traveling the same distance in half the time).
Yeah, I'm using most of PK's options, except I went with 1 Fuel System per jump... I just couldn't get close enough to the T:IW ships with the 1.5 Tanks per jump range... (and that would put my ship down another 50t).

Good suggestions, though I should have pointed out that the actual ship that the players have has one of the "cargo" systems actually a Medium Battery with no weapons installed (this actually means that they have 45t cargo for that system, giving a 395t total, but again, I was trying to keep nice round numbers.) The power plant was also designed to have that extra power for if/when they added weapons.

Yeah, it isn't a combat vessel, but they wanted to keep the option of some guns (for defense... they say) open. Of course the G:Spaceships combat rules seems like any combat is a crap shoot if the ship isn't outright destroyed with one shot, so I don't know how I feel about this.
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Old 07-06-2017, 08:21 PM   #24
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Default Re: [Spaceships 2] Maintenance on Cheap Ships

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Either they're already working at capacity (in which case you'll have to pay to get them to overwork -- if it's even possible), or they're not (in which case you're paying for more people than you need).
Someone who owns a share in the ship is motivated to refit it in their time off (and spend personal funds on it too); a robot might not even have time off.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 07-06-2017 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 07-06-2017, 08:40 PM   #25
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Default Re: [Spaceships 2] Maintenance on Cheap Ships

Here's my take on the redesigned Hero-Class. I kept the Jump-2 engines, but implemented my other suggested changes. This dropped the cost to $27.15M and increased the Cargo Capacity to 500 Tons.

HERO-CLASS (HERO-CLASS 200D-TON PRIVATE MERCHANT)
PILOTING/TL10 (HIGH-PERFORMANCE SPACECRAFT) Page: T:IW206
Code:
 TL     Name     dST/dHP  Hnd/SR  HT  Move   LWt.     Load    SM      Occ      dDR  Range    Cost   
10^  Hero-Class     70     -1/5   13  1G/c  1,000  502.2 [1]  +8  18ASV [2,3]   5     2x   $27.15M
Length: 100 yd. (300 ft.) Crush Depth: 3.8 Atmospheres (125 ft.)
Power Points: +1 / -2 [4]
Space Performance: Hnd/SR: -1/5 sAccel: 1G FTL Rating: FTL-2
Air Performance: Hnd/SR: -1/5 aAccel: 1G (22 mph/s) aSpeed: 2,500 mph (1,250 yps / 0.69 mps)

SHIP SYSTEMS
Code:
 FRONT  
[1]     Half-Sized Systems
  [a]   Advanced Metallic Laminate Armor
          dDR 5
  [b]   Cargo Hold
          25 Tons / SM+2 Bay Doors
[2]     Habitat
          four cabins, four hibernation chambers, one sickbay
[3-6]   Cargo Hold
          200 Tons / SM+4 Bay Doors
[Core]  Control Room
          Comp: C8 / Comm/Sensor: 7 / 4 Stations
Code:
CENTER  
[1]     Half-Sized Systems
  [a]   Advanced Metallic Laminate Armor
          dDR 5
  [b]   Cargo Hold
          25 Tons / SM+2 Bay Doors
[2]     Habitat
          four passenger cabins, one passenger luxury cabin
[3-6]   Cargo Hold
          200 Tons / SM+4 Bay Doors
Code:
 REAR   
[1]     Half-Sized Systems
  [a]   Advanced Metallic Laminate Armor
          dDR 5
  [b]   Cargo Hold
          25 Tons / SM+2 Bay Doors
[2-3]   Fuel Tank
          100 Tons of Fuel
[4]     Engine Room
          1 Control Station / 1 Workspace
[5!]    Standard Reactionless Engine
          1 G [4]
[6!]    Jump 2 J-Drive
          50 Tons Hydrogen per Parsec / 100 Tons per Jump [4,5]
[Core]  Half-Sized Systems
  [a†]  Fusion Reactor
          1 Power Point / 200 yr Fuel [6]
  [b]   Cargo Hold
          25 Tons / SM+2 Bay Doors
Design Switches, Features, & Notes: 4 Airlocks (Capacity: 4 people each)
CAMPAIGN OPTIONS: EBS's Unofficial rules, RPK's Traveller rules
SHIP OPTIONS: Streamlined, Artificial Gravity, Gravitic Compensators, Standard Fuel Processor (25 Tons/hr.), Mass Market Design
[1] Load includes: 2.2 tons of Crew & Passengers, 500 tons in Cargo Hold
[2] Plus 4 in Hibernation Chambers, [3] Crew Requirement (8 total): 5 Control Stations, 1 Technician, 1 Passenger Care, 1 Medical
SYSTEM NOTES: [4] Insufficient Power Points to run all ship systems simultaneously
FUEL USED: [5] Hydrogen, [6] Hydrogen/Helium Isotopes
TROOP STRENGTH (TS): 0 CLASSES: Air, Space FEATURES: Night, Sealed

HABITATS
Code:
Qty.   Location            Type           SM       Notes       
   4   Front [2]  Cabins                  +0         8 person
   4   Front [2]  Hibernation Chambers    +0       4 chambers
   1   Front [2]  Sickbay                 +0  1 bed; +2 Skill
   4  Center [2]  Passenger Cabins        +0         8 person
   1  Center [2]  Passenger Luxury Cabin  +0         2 person
Created using the GURPS Spaceships Design Spreadsheet Version 2.0 RC 21 copyright 2009-2017 Eric B. Smith. This spreadsheet is based on information contained in the GURPS Spaceships series of books.
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Old 07-07-2017, 09:04 AM   #26
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Default Re: [Spaceships 2] Maintenance on Cheap Ships

Oh, something else to note regarding Traveller Jump Drives, keep in mind that Jump-2 doesn't just mean that a ship can travel twice as far in a single jump, it also means that the ship can jump some starless gulfs that Jump-1 ships can't without making some modifications to the ship. To cross a 2 parsec gulf a Jump-1 ship would either need to mount extra Fuel Tanks, have some collapsible fuel tanks in the Cargo Hold (I don't know if these appear in the ISW book, they don't appear in Spaceships, but they do appear in previous versions of GURPS Traveller), or use drop tanks (a concept which showed up in some Traveller supplements, but I don't think were ever used in GURPS Traveller). And even with those modifications, the Jump-1 ship still takes two jumps and two weeks to cross the gulf that the Jump-2 ship can do in one jump and one week.

And a Jump-2 ship can, with some modifications, cross a 4 parsec gulf.
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Old 07-07-2017, 10:48 AM   #27
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Default Re: [Spaceships 2] Maintenance on Cheap Ships

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Someone who owns a share in the ship is motivated to refit it in their time off (and spend personal funds on it too); a robot might not even have time off.
A robot comes under 'not even possible' -- you're already working it at capacity, it simply can't do more.
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Old 07-07-2017, 10:55 AM   #28
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Default Re: [Spaceships 2] Maintenance on Cheap Ships

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
A robot comes under 'not even possible' -- you're already working it at capacity, it simply can't do more.
A robot working at capacity is already doing more than someone working eight hour shifts. If it isn't, you are better off not automating.
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Old 07-07-2017, 11:00 AM   #29
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Default Re: [Spaceships 2] Maintenance on Cheap Ships

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
A robot working at capacity is already doing more than someone working eight hour shifts. If it isn't, you are better off not automating.
Sure, but my point is, you can't have it take extra time to do maintenance unless you buy extra robots, because its time is already consumed by its regular tasks.
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Old 07-07-2017, 11:09 AM   #30
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Default Re: [Spaceships 2] Maintenance on Cheap Ships

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Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
Oh, something else to note regarding Traveller Jump Drives, keep in mind that Jump-2 doesn't just mean that a ship can travel twice as far in a single jump, it also means that the ship can jump some starless gulfs that Jump-1 ships can't without making some modifications to the ship. To cross a 2 parsec gulf a Jump-1 ship would either need to mount extra Fuel Tanks, have some collapsible fuel tanks in the Cargo Hold (I don't know if these appear in the ISW book, they don't appear in Spaceships, but they do appear in previous versions of GURPS Traveller), or use drop tanks (a concept which showed up in some Traveller supplements, but I don't think were ever used in GURPS Traveller). And even with those modifications, the Jump-1 ship still takes two jumps and two weeks to cross the gulf that the Jump-2 ship can do in one jump and one week.

And a Jump-2 ship can, with some modifications, cross a 4 parsec gulf.
Which, if people really are paying freight based on the Jump-1 assumption, may let you cut literal corners and get paid for more distance than you actually travel. In addition to covering the ground you do cover faster.

(Of course, if this is as advantageous as it sounds, you've got to question why you're the only one with a Jump-2 drive...)
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