Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-31-2013, 10:26 PM   #1
kirbwarrior
 
kirbwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dreamland
Default Defaults; how do they work

Now, I've read over the rules, and the FAQ, and I've always thought that, when you put 4pts into, say, Spear from Staff -2, that you now have the Spear skill at Staff -1. But my GM is thinking that those 4pts are only improving the default, not saying you actually have the skill.

Can anyone clear this up? I hope my GM's interpretation is wrong, it seems both unrealistic and bad/unnecessarily complicated for a game.

Thanks ahead of time.

EDIT: My GM seems to think that their interpretation is realistic. That seems to be a huge thing in our debate.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
kirbwarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2013, 10:31 PM   #2
Nereidalbel
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Ellicott City, MD
Default Re: Defaults; how do they work

If you put points into the skill, you have the skill. The only exception is if you use a dabbler perk to have effective skill above the default, but not high enough to say you *really* know the skill.
Nereidalbel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2013, 10:36 PM   #3
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Default Re: Defaults; how do they work

Say that you have DX 12, and you put 4 points into Spear. That gives you Spear-13.

Your default in Staff is either DX-5 or Spear-2; that is, you have either Staff-7 or Staff-11, whichever is better. Obviously you take Staff-11! That's equivalent to what you would get if you didn't have Spear, and you put 1 point into Staff.

Now, say that you want to have Staff-13. If you didn't have Spear, you would have to put 4 points into Staff. But you get Staff-11 free from Spear-13. So you only have to pay the difference between Staff-11 and Staff-13, which is 3 points. You get a discount, in other words.

Bill Stoddard
whswhs is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2013, 10:53 PM   #4
Sunrunners_Fire
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: Defaults; how do they work

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
Now, I've read over the rules, and the FAQ, and I've always thought that, when you put 4pts into, say, Spear from Staff -2, that you now have the Spear skill at Staff -1. But my GM is thinking that those 4pts are only improving the default, not saying you actually have the skill.

Can anyone clear this up? I hope my GM's interpretation is wrong, it seems both unrealistic and bad/unnecessarily complicated for a game.

Thanks ahead of time.

EDIT: My GM seems to think that their interpretation is realistic. That seems to be a huge thing in our debate.
Assigning points to Staff does not give you points in Spear, and so assigning points to Staff does not give you the Spear skill. Instead, it improves the default value of Spear to the better of DX-5 or Staff-2. It remains a default and not a skill (meaning you can't put points into Spear Techniques unless you put points into Spear first). You can then assign points to Spear so as to improve it from the default, but until you spend points in Spear it is still a use of the Staff skill.

Training in Staff Fighting makes you better at Spear Fighting, but it doesn't train you in Spear Fighting.
Sunrunners_Fire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2013, 10:58 PM   #5
kirbwarrior
 
kirbwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dreamland
Default Re: Defaults; how do they work

But putting even a single point into Spear, regardless of how or why, makes it so I have all benefits of having the Spear skill (aka, I have it, nothing withheld)?

To give a similar situation, I have Broadsword at DX+10. Assuming DX10, I have it at 20. I also have Rapier at 16 (Broadsword -4). I don't get any of the benefits of fencing, according to B173. If I put 4pts into Rapier, do I now? Can I do the same by putting only 1 pt into Rapier, to signify that I have Rapier 16, and not a default of 16?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
kirbwarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2013, 11:08 PM   #6
Sunrunners_Fire
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: Defaults; how do they work

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
But putting even a single point into Spear, regardless of how or why, makes it so I have all benefits of having the Spear skill (aka, I have it, nothing withheld)?

To give a similar situation, I have Broadsword at DX+10. Assuming DX10, I have it at 20. I also have Rapier at 16 (Broadsword -4). I don't get any of the benefits of fencing, according to B173. If I put 4pts into Rapier, do I now? Can I do the same by putting only 1 pt into Rapier, to signify that I have Rapier 16, and not a default of 16?
From:
DX 10
Broadsword DX/A - DX+10 20 [40]
Rapid DX/A - DX+6 16 [0]
To:
DX 10
Broadsword DX/A - DX+10 20 [40]
Rapier DX/A - DX+7 17 [4]
... is legal and gives you all the benefits of having the Rapier skill.

To:
DX 10
Broadsword DX/A - DX+10 20 [40]
Rapier DX/A - DX+6 16 [1]
... is not legal and gives you no benefits. You must spend the difference in point cost between your new level and your default level; partial expenditures don't do anything. A permissive GM may allow a custom perk to do so, but it doesn't sound like that's the way to bet at the moment.

Last edited by Sunrunners_Fire; 07-31-2013 at 11:12 PM.
Sunrunners_Fire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2013, 12:19 AM   #7
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Defaults; how do they work

I imagine the bone of contention here is the +2 to Parry with Staff, and whether this counts as a "special defense" for purposes of this bit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by B173
Regardless of your default skill level, you do not get the special benefits of a skill – especially combat bonuses such as improved damage, special defenses, and unpenalized off-hand use – when you use a skill at default. To enjoy these benefits, you must spend at least one point on the skill.
For other purposes, like just rolling to hit, there's no difference between "not having the skill, but having it at default N" and "having the skill at N".
Anaraxes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2013, 12:27 AM   #8
Sunrunners_Fire
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: Defaults; how do they work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
I imagine the bone of contention here is the +2 to Parry with Staff, and whether this counts as a "special defense" for purposes of this bit:
If so, the answer is easy: Weapon Adaption (Spear to Staff) [1] allows you to use Spear-weapons as if they were Staff-weapons, with all the benefits of them being Staff-weapons such as the +2 to Parry. I'm not sure thats' the concern though.
Sunrunners_Fire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2013, 12:36 AM   #9
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Defaults; how do they work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
If so, the answer is easy: Weapon Adaption (Spear to Staff) [1] allows you to use Spear-weapons as if they were Staff-weapons, with all the benefits of them being Staff-weapons such as the +2 to Parry. I'm not sure thats' the concern though.
The problem is that that Weapon Adaptation is a grossly unrealistic perk in most possible forms, and should be strictly controlled by any GM who is trying for a game more serious than a Marx brothers film. So invoking it doesn't fix anything.
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2013, 12:43 AM   #10
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Defaults; how do they work

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
Now, I've read over the rules, and the FAQ, and I've always thought that, when you put 4pts into, say, Spear from Staff -2, that you now have the Spear skill at Staff -1. But my GM is thinking that those 4pts are only improving the default, not saying you actually have the skill.
.
Your GM is wrong by the rules as written. If you put enough points into it to raise it, you now have the skill for all purposes. Not that I'm sure why it matters.
David Johnston2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
skill defaults

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.