Dragon "riot control" at TL10

Talonos · 08-09-2011, 07:52 AM

I have a group of TL10 (perhaps 11, if need be) humans who are landing on and colonizing a planet. The problem is, this planet is inhabited by TL3 dragons of various varieties. They recognize the dragons are intelligent, but they still feel the need to drive them off. The dragons are mostly concentrated on one specific volcanic (dormant) island, in a maze of twisty honeycombed passages. This island needs to be dealt with, and I'm envisioning it going down much like it did in the movie Avatar. (Though hopefully less lethal.)

I've never dealt with High TL equipment much. What would be the best option? Some sort of gas? Some sort of sonic weapon? Some sort of incapacitating bio-engineered virus followed by manual deportation? What would you do to drive away a bunch of moderately intelligent, low TL, rhinoceros sized flying beasties as humanely as possible? I'd prefer to stay in TL10, but TL11 is possible if need be.

vierasmarius · 08-09-2011, 08:25 AM

You probably don't have to go up to TL 11; there are plenty of less-lethal options available at TL9-10, and more if you include some superscience. Here's a rundown of what's available in the Ultra Tech book:

1) MAD (Microwave Area Denial), TL9, pg. 120: Uses microwave beams to heat tissue and cause pain (specifically, the Agony incapacitating condition). It's resisted by HT, with a bonus for DR, so if these dragons have thick hides it won't be very effective.

2) Sonic Nauseator, TL9, pg. 125: A hearing-based attack that causes Hard of Hearing and Moderate Pain, with the possibility of Deafness and Retching on a poor resistance roll. The advantage is that it ignores DR, though it doesn't work if the target can't hear.

3) Electrolaser, TL9, pg. 119: Electrocutes targets at a distance. Can only hit one target at a time (compared to the area effect of the above two) but is more potent and penetrating than MAD, and much longer range than the Nauseator. Failure to resist stuns the target, which has a much shorter duration than most other non-lethal effects.

4) Sonic Stunner, TL10, pg. 125: Like the electrolaser, only hits one target, but has an even more favorable armor divisor, and causes Unconsciousness for a considerable duration. Range is shorter though.

5) Biochemical gases, TL9-10, pg. 160: Riot Gas can be useful to discourage a crowd, while Sleep Gas or Paralysis Gas will quickly incapacitate. The number of subjects affected depends entirely on the delivery mechanism (ie, a spray gun would only hit one target, while a grenade or mortar could affect an entire room).

Something to keep in mind is that if the dragons are considerably larger than humans they should require larger doses to cause the same level of incapacitating effect. Also, their alien body chemistry may need specially-tailored biochemicals for such deterrents to even have a chance of functioning.

EDIT: Something else occurs to me. If the dragons have heavy natural DR and unusual biochemistry (making them resistant or immune to most of the above countermeasures) you could bring out the TL10^ Force Beams. On the Kinetic Stun setting that can deliver heavy knockback against armored targets, without risking lethal damage. While this certainly won't incapacitate the critters, it may be enough to dissuade them from attacking.

Apache · 08-09-2011, 08:59 AM

Well, I take it that A) either this was a one-way trip for the colonists or that the interstellar society they are from has no "Prime Directive"-like rule about colonizing planets already inhabited by sapient natives.

And B), they either can't communicate with the dragons or vice-versa. Which seems weird. The best method would be to strike up some treaties with the local dragon tribes and dole out the tech goodies (suitably modified for big flying lizards.)

Also, if most of the dragons are based off of just ONE island...um....why don't the colonists just settle on the other side of the planet?

Also...if this is an Earthlike planet (1G, oxy-nitro atmo, around 70% hydro...), how, exactly, are these dragons flying? I would go personally with psionics, myself (the SF version of "it's magic!!"), because if they are "realistic" I don't see how they would have become sapient, much less developed any sort of technology....

And I think their tech level is going to be more like TL 0+3.....I don't see them, um, farming. With plows. Or building walled cities. Or using swords.

vierasmarius · 08-09-2011, 09:28 AM

Perhaps (drawing from Avatar) the dragons are centered around the primary source of Unobtainium. As for flying, if the atmosphere pressure is a bit higher, and the planet's gravity is a bit lower, it may be possible to have large flying "lizards". But mostly, if you're going to have space marines fighting Pern-style dragons, I don't think realism is too much of an issue anyways.

Jonas · 08-09-2011, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Perhaps (drawing from Avatar) the dragons are centered around the primary source of Unobtainium. As for flying, if the atmosphere pressure is a bit higher, and the planet's gravity is a bit lower, it may be possible to have large flying "lizards". But mostly, if you're going to have space marines fighting Pern-style dragons, I don't think realism is too much of an issue anyways.

I suppose a better question would be why not just drop a rock on them from orbit first then land after the dust settles.?*

*Yes I know thats no fun, but hush. ;p :D

lwcamp · 08-09-2011, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apache

Also...if this is an Earthlike planet (1G, oxy-nitro atmo, around 70% hydro...), how, exactly, are these dragons flying?

Here is a picture of the largest Earth flying animal that ever lived (the one on the ground - the flying one is also large, but not the largest), next to a human for size comparison
http://images.sciencedaily.com/2009/...1514-large.jpg

Here are some pop-sci articles about research on how these giant animals got airborne and stayed airborne
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1115074047.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0106161514.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0217212305.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1124073902.htm

Luke

Dunadin777 · 08-09-2011, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talonos

What would you do to drive away a bunch of moderately intelligent, low TL, rhinoceros sized flying beasties as humanely as possible?

(emphasis mine)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas

I suppose a better question would be why not just drop a rock on them from orbit first then land after the dust settles.?*

*Yes I know thats no fun, but hush. ;p :D

Hmmm.... I wonder?

I could be wrong, but I think the OP would still consider suddenly-lethal an inhumane method, even if they wouldn't live long enough to feel it. :)

Seriously, though: if the Dragons are TL3, maybe the TL10/11 humans could bait another area of the planet with some attractive resources that would encourage them to leave their home--either permanently or temporarily. If it was just something to tempt them out for a bit, at least they'd be easier to herd away while in the open.

But if you're looking at a 'humane' way to forcibly evict a society that is TL 2 or more, anything you do to force them to relocate will result in deaths. At that TL, you're looking at a point where society is dependent on tools and infrastructure enough that anything but a planned migration will probably result in incidental deaths if there's more than a couple hundred victims.

Talonos · 08-09-2011, 01:18 PM

Thank you for your reccomendations. This is very helpful.

I'm interested in the gasses. You mentioned that you would need a larger dose to achieve the same effect. However, isn't the "dosage taken" for gasses based on the amount of gas taken into the lungs? Meaning, wouldn't larger lungs provide a greater dosage automatically? If not, where can I find the rules on the effects of SM on gasses?

I also like the idea of luring them away. I'll spend some time thinking of what the dragons would want as a carrot, rather than what would work against them as a stick. In the end, however, the incoming humans would probably be okay with a few casualties, just not with wholesale genocide.

Apache seemed somewhat confused about my original intent, warning me about things I had already mostly considered. This is understandable, considering that I intentionally provided the bare minimum conext to understand my question. If anybody, (including him) requires additional context, feel free to subject yourself to the wall of text behind the spoiler tag. ;)

Spoiler:

Yes, this is a one way trip. A "scouting colony" of a several hundred people came to the planet hundreds of years earlier, with very few resources. They found it earth-like and habitable, and with their last remaining electical power, send an "all-clear" signal back to their home planet. Then, with little advanced technology, they set out to make the most of their new world. At some point, an internal dispute destroyed much of their knowledge and culture, and they regressed to TL3. Then they found the dragons. With no access to advanced technology, they became subserviant to the dragons, raising livestock for the dragons in exchange for protection from some of the other, less tractible inhabitants.

It took a couple hundred years for the "all clear" to make it back to the colonizing planet, a few years for the inhabitents of that planet to load up and ship out, and a couple hundred years at near-light travel to make it back to the planet. The new Colonists mentioned in the OP arrive to find a group of people they consider to be in their same cultural family stuck in the dark ages under the thumbs of draconic overlords. They recognize the dragons are intelligent and that they consider themselves to be in a symbiotic rather than parasitic relationship with the humans, so the arriving humans want to kill as few dragons as possible, but they also recognize that the TL3 humans need to be "liberated," and recognize it might be harder to talk the TL3 humans into leaving their homes than it would be to fire a few sonic nauseators into the dragon's island.

The incoming humans are permanently leaving their old planet, and so they came prepared with insertion teams to "clear the way" for a bunch of colonist ships. They came as prepared as a high TL powerful industrial government could make them.

No, the dragons are not really TL3. By saying they were TL3, I was implying they were familiar with TL3 technoogy. They know to blast the ballistae first, that arrows are mostly harmless but crossbows can be painful, etc.

Yes, there's some sort of rubber-science around the dragon's flying. I'm thinking a combination of slightly lower gravity and psi-assistance.

Victor Maxus · 08-09-2011, 04:03 PM

The only good dragon is a dead dragon!

Seriously, though, removing large, rather smart critters as humanely as possible will have other problems. It's one thing to go ape and just shoot them all and let God sort them out. But to wrangle and remove that many. Think of the difficulties of capturing large creatures for zoo's and stuff with out hurting them. Sooner or later, something is going to happen, the semi smart dragons will resist in some form of orginized fashion, humans will get frustated, kill a few, spark problems that way.

I guess I am not helping your question any, but am just looking at possible story line plot devices you can use. What ever solution you do come up with for dealing with these dragons won't be perfect. Some things will go wrong. But that is where adventures come from and what the characters are for... Right?

Frost · 08-10-2011, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talonos

I've never dealt with High TL equipment much. What would be the best option? Some sort of gas? Some sort of sonic weapon? Some sort of incapacitating bio-engineered virus followed by manual deportation? What would you do to drive away a bunch of moderately intelligent, low TL, rhinoceros sized flying beasties as humanely as possible? I'd prefer to stay in TL10, but TL11 is possible if need be.

There is no good way of doing this, even going non-lethal heavy casualties are likely (probably on both sides). Anything that can rapidly disable a resisting opponent can potentially kill and any attempt to forcibly evict the local population is almost certainly going to provoke violent reprisals which probably won't be planed with the same consideration.

Your colonists should have the sense to recognise this and plan accordingly at least initially placing the emphasis upon negotiation or failing that intimidation rather than pursuing a military solution.

If the operation is perceived to be unavoidable I would suspect that manual deportation will be the only viable method. Staying clear of super-science my suggestion for a preferred weapons load-out would be some form of non-lethal gas possibly either UT's Paralysis or Riot gasses delivered by bombs and grenades. This should be augmented by troops or drones armed with either Electrolasers or large caliber low velocity projectile weapons firing capacitor rounds (Stingray from UT), physical restraints or localised area denial devices (Warbler). UT's tangler is the perfect example of the sort of weapon needed for obvious reasons.

Given the risk (certainty?) of escalation the forces conducting the sweep will need a lethal fallback option. The people planning this thing will, from what you are saying, be more ready to accept 'things went to hell and a bunch of dragons were killed' than 'things went to hell and a bunch of our lads got killed' so this option is likely to be more than an afterthought. Depending upon how well protected the dragons are standard infantry weapons (whatever they happen to be) will probably be up to the job although a scratch force might favour shotguns and fragmentation or even thermobaric warheads.

08-09-2011, 07:52 AM	#1
Talonos Join Date: Jan 2007	Dragon "riot control" at TL10 I have a group of TL10 (perhaps 11, if need be) humans who are landing on and colonizing a planet. The problem is, this planet is inhabited by TL3 dragons of various varieties. They recognize the dragons are intelligent, but they still feel the need to drive them off. The dragons are mostly concentrated on one specific volcanic (dormant) island, in a maze of twisty honeycombed passages. This island needs to be dealt with, and I'm envisioning it going down much like it did in the movie Avatar. (Though hopefully less lethal.) I've never dealt with High TL equipment much. What would be the best option? Some sort of gas? Some sort of sonic weapon? Some sort of incapacitating bio-engineered virus followed by manual deportation? What would you do to drive away a bunch of moderately intelligent, low TL, rhinoceros sized flying beasties as humanely as possible? I'd prefer to stay in TL10, but TL11 is possible if need be.

08-09-2011, 08:25 AM	#2
vierasmarius Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Oregon	Re: Dragon "riot control" at TL10 You probably don't have to go up to TL 11; there are plenty of less-lethal options available at TL9-10, and more if you include some superscience. Here's a rundown of what's available in the Ultra Tech book: 1) MAD (Microwave Area Denial), TL9, pg. 120: Uses microwave beams to heat tissue and cause pain (specifically, the Agony incapacitating condition). It's resisted by HT, with a bonus for DR, so if these dragons have thick hides it won't be very effective. 2) Sonic Nauseator, TL9, pg. 125: A hearing-based attack that causes Hard of Hearing and Moderate Pain, with the possibility of Deafness and Retching on a poor resistance roll. The advantage is that it ignores DR, though it doesn't work if the target can't hear. 3) Electrolaser, TL9, pg. 119: Electrocutes targets at a distance. Can only hit one target at a time (compared to the area effect of the above two) but is more potent and penetrating than MAD, and much longer range than the Nauseator. Failure to resist stuns the target, which has a much shorter duration than most other non-lethal effects. 4) Sonic Stunner, TL10, pg. 125: Like the electrolaser, only hits one target, but has an even more favorable armor divisor, and causes Unconsciousness for a considerable duration. Range is shorter though. 5) Biochemical gases, TL9-10, pg. 160: Riot Gas can be useful to discourage a crowd, while Sleep Gas or Paralysis Gas will quickly incapacitate. The number of subjects affected depends entirely on the delivery mechanism (ie, a spray gun would only hit one target, while a grenade or mortar could affect an entire room). Something to keep in mind is that if the dragons are considerably larger than humans they should require larger doses to cause the same level of incapacitating effect. Also, their alien body chemistry may need specially-tailored biochemicals for such deterrents to even have a chance of functioning. EDIT: Something else occurs to me. If the dragons have heavy natural DR and unusual biochemistry (making them resistant or immune to most of the above countermeasures) you could bring out the TL10^ Force Beams. On the Kinetic Stun setting that can deliver heavy knockback against armored targets, without risking lethal damage. While this certainly won't incapacitate the critters, it may be enough to dissuade them from attacking. Last edited by vierasmarius; 08-09-2011 at 08:53 AM.

08-09-2011, 08:59 AM	#3
Apache On Notice Join Date: Apr 2007	Re: Dragon "riot control" at TL10 Well, I take it that A) either this was a one-way trip for the colonists or that the interstellar society they are from has no "Prime Directive"-like rule about colonizing planets already inhabited by sapient natives. And B), they either can't communicate with the dragons or vice-versa. Which seems weird. The best method would be to strike up some treaties with the local dragon tribes and dole out the tech goodies (suitably modified for big flying lizards.) Also, if most of the dragons are based off of just ONE island...um....why don't the colonists just settle on the other side of the planet? Also...if this is an Earthlike planet (1G, oxy-nitro atmo, around 70% hydro...), how, exactly, are these dragons flying? I would go personally with psionics, myself (the SF version of "it's magic!!"), because if they are "realistic" I don't see how they would have become sapient, much less developed any sort of technology.... And I think their tech level is going to be more like TL 0+3.....I don't see them, um, farming. With plows. Or building walled cities. Or using swords. __________________ If you think an Apache can't tell right from wrong....wrong him, and see what happens.

08-09-2011, 09:28 AM	#4
vierasmarius Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Oregon	Re: Dragon "riot control" at TL10 Perhaps (drawing from Avatar) the dragons are centered around the primary source of Unobtainium. As for flying, if the atmosphere pressure is a bit higher, and the planet's gravity is a bit lower, it may be possible to have large flying "lizards". But mostly, if you're going to have space marines fighting Pern-style dragons, I don't think realism is too much of an issue anyways.

08-09-2011, 01:18 PM	#8
Talonos Join Date: Jan 2007	Re: Dragon "riot control" at TL10 Thank you for your reccomendations. This is very helpful. I'm interested in the gasses. You mentioned that you would need a larger dose to achieve the same effect. However, isn't the "dosage taken" for gasses based on the amount of gas taken into the lungs? Meaning, wouldn't larger lungs provide a greater dosage automatically? If not, where can I find the rules on the effects of SM on gasses? I also like the idea of luring them away. I'll spend some time thinking of what the dragons would want as a carrot, rather than what would work against them as a stick. In the end, however, the incoming humans would probably be okay with a few casualties, just not with wholesale genocide. Apache seemed somewhat confused about my original intent, warning me about things I had already mostly considered. This is understandable, considering that I intentionally provided the bare minimum conext to understand my question. If anybody, (including him) requires additional context, feel free to subject yourself to the wall of text behind the spoiler tag. ;) Spoiler: Yes, this is a one way trip. A "scouting colony" of a several hundred people came to the planet hundreds of years earlier, with very few resources. They found it earth-like and habitable, and with their last remaining electical power, send an "all-clear" signal back to their home planet. Then, with little advanced technology, they set out to make the most of their new world. At some point, an internal dispute destroyed much of their knowledge and culture, and they regressed to TL3. Then they found the dragons. With no access to advanced technology, they became subserviant to the dragons, raising livestock for the dragons in exchange for protection from some of the other, less tractible inhabitants. It took a couple hundred years for the "all clear" to make it back to the colonizing planet, a few years for the inhabitents of that planet to load up and ship out, and a couple hundred years at near-light travel to make it back to the planet. The new Colonists mentioned in the OP arrive to find a group of people they consider to be in their same cultural family stuck in the dark ages under the thumbs of draconic overlords. They recognize the dragons are intelligent and that they consider themselves to be in a symbiotic rather than parasitic relationship with the humans, so the arriving humans want to kill as few dragons as possible, but they also recognize that the TL3 humans need to be "liberated," and recognize it might be harder to talk the TL3 humans into leaving their homes than it would be to fire a few sonic nauseators into the dragon's island. The incoming humans are permanently leaving their old planet, and so they came prepared with insertion teams to "clear the way" for a bunch of colonist ships. They came as prepared as a high TL powerful industrial government could make them. No, the dragons are not really TL3. By saying they were TL3, I was implying they were familiar with TL3 technoogy. They know to blast the ballistae first, that arrows are mostly harmless but crossbows can be painful, etc. Yes, there's some sort of rubber-science around the dragon's flying. I'm thinking a combination of slightly lower gravity and psi-assistance.

08-09-2011, 04:03 PM	#9
Victor Maxus Join Date: May 2007 Location: Right Here	Re: Dragon "riot control" at TL10 The only good dragon is a dead dragon! Seriously, though, removing large, rather smart critters as humanely as possible will have other problems. It's one thing to go ape and just shoot them all and let God sort them out. But to wrangle and remove that many. Think of the difficulties of capturing large creatures for zoo's and stuff with out hurting them. Sooner or later, something is going to happen, the semi smart dragons will resist in some form of orginized fashion, humans will get frustated, kill a few, spark problems that way. I guess I am not helping your question any, but am just looking at possible story line plot devices you can use. What ever solution you do come up with for dealing with these dragons won't be perfect. Some things will go wrong. But that is where adventures come from and what the characters are for... Right? __________________ I am not most people. If I were, there would be a lot more of me.