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Old 11-17-2010, 05:06 AM   #71
LoneWolf23k
 
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Default Re: The morality of Orcs

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
Sparta is Uruk-hai. Persians are orcs.
Considering the Persian empire was actually far more sophisticated then '300' depicted, the analogy falls a bit flat.
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Old 11-17-2010, 05:08 AM   #72
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Default Re: The morality of Orcs

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Originally Posted by LoneWolf23k View Post
Considering the Persian empire was actually far more sophisticated then '300' depicted, the analogy falls a bit flat.
One the other hand, the Persian practise of calling up levies of huge size from among their subject people, many of whom were primitive, is not entirely unsuggestive of Sauron's regime.

The Persian nobility itself could be represented by any intelligent and sophisticated race. Rakhashas, perhaps, if we are using D&D.

But they are clearly fielding armies of cannon fodder, which means orcs, goblins or similar.
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Old 11-17-2010, 08:31 AM   #73
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Default Re: The morality of Orcs

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Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats View Post
I'm actually starting to like the idea of Orcs turning out to be no worse than humans, just with worse P.R. Orcs might only have a reputation for brutality because those that most humans encounter are really brutal, like judging all humans on the Mongols. That said I still prefer Orcs be phycologically different to humans in some small way.
Well Orcs in Banestorm are destructive spoiler types for religious reasons. They reject the Eternal, where Elves emulate long lived hings like trees and dwarves make things that last. They destroy and anti-create out of piousness.

Give your orcs a religion like this. It's not entirely worshipped by all orcs, but prevalent enough to generate the negative rep Orcs get as a whole.

Example: Orcs were once the harbingers of Civilization which enslaved the "lesser" races and taught them things like writing, magic and metallurgy. Eventually the Elves rebelled and Dwarves and Humans joined in, toppling the Orc Civilization and driving the orcs 'Trail of Tears' like into the wilderness with only wood and stone to work with. One Orc hero cult declared war on the replacement civilizations of the once subject races heresies to be destroyed on sight.

They ritualistically practiced sadism, a disadvantage it's leaders fostered and cultivated among it's new generations of leaders. It is this cult that is responsible for so much misery (they'd burn crops they couldn't use just for the sake of having the farmers starve butcher children burn down any structures for the sake of burning down structurers etc.

To a certain extent, other orcs follow this if only beause of the emphasiss on Orcish pride and achievement through vengeance.
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Old 11-18-2010, 03:05 AM   #74
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Default Re: The morality of Orcs

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Originally Posted by Captain-Captain View Post
Well Orcs in Banestorm are destructive spoiler types for religious reasons. They reject the Eternal, where Elves emulate long lived hings like trees and dwarves make things that last. They destroy and anti-create out of piousness.
Actually, that wasn't quite the authorial intention. The religion emerges from the psychology, not vice-versa.

The idea with Banestorm orcs was that they are, at base, very big on dominance behaviour and fluid but forceful social hierarchy. Unfortunately, they also tend to think that the simplest and most reliable way to prove dominance is to destroy. If you control a thing, you can destroy it; once you've destroyed it, no one else can ever control it. You win! (Destroying lower-ranked beings also works, and orcs will sometimes destroy other orcs for that reason, but that means that they're no longer respecting, admiring, and fearing you, so they don't do it too often.) A really confident orc will hold onto something rather than destroying it, because that has obvious advantages, but it takes guts and strength. Creative craftsmen are unnerving, because they can generate new stuff to control, which feels weird, but also has obvious advantages.

Unfortunately, all this leads to a rather maltheistic view of religion. The Eternal is stronger than any orc, and doesn't seem to need orcs; therefore, it must be impelled to destroy orcs. Which explains how the world seems to work, after all. The Eternal is also the great creator, and therefore the creepiest thing possible. Fighting the Eternal is hopeless, but also heroic; putting one over on it, on a local and temporary basis, is a great accomplishment. Elves, dwarfs, and to a lesser extent humans, are creepy willing minions of the hostile Eternal - one more reason to dislike them.

An orc can be converted to other religions, and something like Christianity or Islam, with a god who doesn't seem impelled to destroy, even if He could, will actually help moderate orc psychology - but the core concept takes a bit of getting over, and the orc will still have an instinctive urge to dominate, control, and if necessary destroy, although he may be able to control it.
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Old 11-18-2010, 06:21 AM   #75
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Default Re: The morality of Orcs

I'm not sure having Orc religion being the driving force behind their destruction is the best idea. It means that Orcs will either be very different when they are of different cultures and religions, undermining them as a creature consistent character (which is really staple of fantasy). It would be a bit jarring for players to have South Island Orcs levelling villages and burning children and then deal with Middle Lands Orcs who are polite and demure because they worship a different set of gods. Comparatively a biological imperative can still manifest differently enough to highlight different cultures but still feel consistent. If Orcs tend to choose fight over flight much more than humans it could manifest as humans needing to prove to South Island Orcs that they are too dangerious to make immediately attacking not worthwhile, but likewise needing to prove to Middle Lands Orcs that they are not ever going to pose a threat and have merely peaceful intentions. While Orcs are prone to attacking threats rather than fleeing or bowing to them, the South Island Orcs typically have hostile interactions with their neighbours and so culturally assume that foreign equals threat, conversely the Middle Lands Orcs are great and mighty Empire who trade with other nations more than fight with them and so culturally assume that traders should be greeted, but threats destroyed.
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