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09-28-2020, 11:26 AM | #1 |
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The Hall of Fallen Columns
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What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?
I've got GURPS Thaumatology, GURPS Magic, most of the Vol. 3 Pyramids, and all of the Magic/Thaum spinoff supplement books for GURPS 4th Edition.
My scenario: The PCs are going to free a dark godling from its slumber and they have to defeat it. They could do this by sealing it away and dropping its Cradle into the Void, or they could try to fight it. The godling is not intended to be omnipotent - it's intended to be around as tough a fight as a large dragon. Theologically, it is strongly associated with undeath, void, destruction, creation (especially deceptive creation such as illusions) and mind control (especially rage, fear, disgust). I'd rather not go through the standard Magic system (spells-as-skills), since I'd prefer for a godling to have a very flexible and powerful spellcasting ability. The spellcasting should be rather akin to the godling warping and rearranging its own proximal reality. Of the remaining systems, I can see four faintly-related systems giving flexibility: Syntactic Magic (from Thaumatology) for Verb/Noun costs, Realm Magic (ibid) for conceptual divisions of existence, Ritual Path Magic (which seems like a worked version of Syntactic), and finally Dungeon Fantasy's Incantation Magic (which seems like an action version of RPM, exchanging the time commitment instead for a cumulative skill penalty). I'd like to showcase a godling who could wield magic with extreme flexibility (albeit in a limited number of theological associated realms) for one combat, after which the godling will be destroyed or sealed away. Which system would be best for this? I'm leaning towards:
I'm thinking that I could give the godling arbitrarily high levels of skill in the Incantation framework, which could balance out almost any spell effect desired, and then use the Incantation Verb/Noun definitions to suit whatever combat need arises. The godling would still have an Energy Reserve and would still have to spend it during spellcasting, but this is more a means of keeping track of ultimate power exhaustion in the encounter, than a means of limiting what it's capable of actually doing per spellcasting. Any thoughts? Has anybody actually gamed with the four systems and could they offer any insights as to how they play? |
09-28-2020, 11:39 AM | #2 |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
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Re: What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?
Ritual Path Magic is the most high-powered system out there. Give the godling all the Ritual Adept things and go nuts.
Or you could just go with the most flexible system of all - GM fiat. "Yeah, he does this. No, you don't know how he did it."
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09-28-2020, 12:17 PM | #3 |
Join Date: Sep 2016
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Re: What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?
Just define the powers the god can use without worrying about point costs or magic systems. It’s a god with powers the PCs can’t mimic, so the details on how it does what it does are irrelevant to the game.
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09-28-2020, 12:47 PM | #4 |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?
FWIW, I make my living selling you (or trying to sell you!) GURPS stuff . . . and I'm with the people recommending that you go with "gods just do stuff, no need to justify how to the players." The moment you stick a rules system on what gods, even minor ones, can do, these things happen:
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09-28-2020, 02:15 PM | #5 |
Hero of Democracy
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
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Re: What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?
Well, if he's only a big and bad as a large dragon, he's unlikely to be an bona fide God, just a little spirit shaped a bit like a Diety.
I've used RPM quite a bit, and I've used Realm magic a fair amount. My take-aways:
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09-28-2020, 04:35 PM | #6 |
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Re: What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?
A minor deity with IQ 20 [200], Magery 12 (RPM) [125], Modular Ability 1 (Cosmic Powers; Trait-Limited, Ritual Mastery Perk Only, -50%) [5], Modular Abilities 24 (Slotted Cosmic Powers; Magical Skills Only, -20%) [102], Path Adept [40], Path of Magic (VH) IQ+4 [24]-24, and Thaumatology (VH) IQ+4 [24]-24 is a phenomenal magician. With the investment of 520 CP, they are capable of performing most single Path rituals (or Path of Magic plus another Path) at an effective skill of 26 (they can also create potions with an effective skill of 26). They have an energy reserve of 36 mana points and can support 36 conditional rituals.
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09-28-2020, 04:46 PM | #7 |
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The Hall of Fallen Columns
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Re: What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?
Thanks for the speedy responses and the admonitions against statting up omnipotent beings. I fully understand Rule Zero and all the standard waivers of GM liability therein. I still wish to proceed with this stress test of the gaming system (edit: especially since official GURPS publications have already statted up god-level beings before - see The Sad Lost God and "The Annihilator").
The godling's backstory actually fits Kromm's admonitions rather well ("watch out or mere mortals could level up to godhood!"). In-story, it's a false god, created by unwitting wishful thinking by a group of worshippers fooled into following a constructed religion. So it pretty much appeared out of thin air, gained power from prayers, and now exists as a grotesque stillborn godling (what D&D might call an Atropal). As EricTheRed correctly puts it, this boss monster is only around the power level of a big dragon in combat - it has traits that make it a deity (but only in the sense that it derives power from others' wishful thinking, and can grant these back to worshippers occasionally as Advantages). The PCs must be able to feasibly kill it, either by picking up certain backstoried artifacts to counter it, or through brute force. My current build for it (sans spellcasting) is around 1,000 CP total, which is comparable to some of the Third Edition GURPS Monsters stuff, so hardly ineffable power levels, though challenging. On magic systems Crunchwise, it looks like RPM's system is hard coded to expect time expenditure (in addition to an expense of ER/FP and skill penalties for rush casting) - the flavor being of an occultist in their circle gathering background mana while the fangs pace around them. Realm magic, by contrast, has the level 6 which by itself seems like it would suggest a demigod-like level of power. This seems like it would be an ER-intensive spellcasting system, but potentially quite quick. So if the demigod has excess ER to burn, it could do so and cast many powerful spells back to back (tailored as the situation requires). Then once it runs out of ER, it would have to rest and wait for its faithful's collective prayers to regenerate it again. So, canny PCs could cause the godling to exhaust its ER in spells to which they are immune (perhaps due to artifacts carried) and then they can dispose of it while its magical resources are empty. Last edited by SolemnGolem; 11-01-2020 at 08:44 AM. |
10-09-2020, 12:09 PM | #8 |
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The Hall of Fallen Columns
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Re: What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?
An attempt at a worked example. Apologies for a few repeated elements, since I'd rather collect most salient info in one post.
Exldirs is a demigod-level being, and can warp reality to some degree to accommodate its wishes. This is limited by its energy (I've arbitrarily set its ER at 300 - and the way that it recharges its ER is so slow as to be irrelevant in a combat engagement) and also by its specialization in Realms of magic that it controls. (GURPS Thaumatology p. 188). Theologically, it is strongly associated with undeath, void, destruction, creation (especially deceptive creation such as illusions) and mind control (especially rage, fear, disgust). Realm magic definitions: All Realms use level 6 as a cosmic transcendent level of power. Each Realm is worth a total of 60 points for all 6 levels, meaning that each separate level is worth 10 points. Exldirs, as a demigod of a false religion created from the destruction of a former religion, has the following realms in its portfolio:
Exldirs has each required Realm casting skill at effective skill level 22. Sample Castings: Instill Fear - afflicts a living target with the results of a Fright Check Table This allows Exldirs to scare off living enemies in a supernatural way, quite beyond the obvious combat threat it poses. Energy Cost: 4 = 2x2 (double the level of Realm Magic - Emotion) Range: up to 100 yards at -6 (starting from -0 at within 2 yards) Duration: instantaneous at -0. Casting time: 4 seconds at -0, but can be quickened to 1 second at -6. Resisted by target's Will, modified by Exldirs' own margin of success. Distance variant: Exldirs' base skill in Realm Magic (Dark Emotions) is 22, so with a full 4 second casting time (-0), Exldirs can frighten a target at 100 yards, it would roll against effective skill 22 -6 = 16 for a 98% chance of success. Close combat variant: In the haste of combat, Exldirs could frighten a more immediate target at 10 yards (-3 for range) and quartered casting time for 1 second (-6) at casting level 13 at around 84% chance of success. The target may attempt a Will roll to negate, modified by Exldirs' margin of success. Failure means that the target rolls on the Fright Check Table (B360). Exldirs gets a -1 to the skill roll per size modifier above +0 held by the target. Rebuke Undead - similar to Instill Fear, but requires the additional Realm of Death This allows Exldirs to afflict undead with a supernatural dread. It is more expensive than doing the same to the living, since this requires two Realms to work (Emotion and Death) Energy Cost: 8 = 2x3 (double level of Realm Magic - Death) plus 2 (Realm Magic - Emotion) Range: up to 100 yards Duration: instantaneous Casting time: 5 seconds (Death/3 plus 2), can be quickened to 1 second at -9. Resisted by target's Will, modified by Exldir's margin of success. Distance variant: 100 yards, 5 seconds casting time, effective skill: 22 -6 (distance) -1 (two Realms) = 15 Close combat variant: 10 yards, 2 seconds casting time, effective skill: 22 -3 (distance) -1 (two Realms) -6 (halved and rounded up, twice) = 12 Target can resist with Will, modified by Exldirs' margin of success, with failure meaning a roll on the Fright Check Table. Targets with immunity to mind control are immune to this magic. Instill Madness This allows Exldirs to break the minds of living enemies with unnatural destruction of mental and emotional functions, as opposed to merely giving them a negative emotion of Fear (above). Exldirs usually creates a murderous berserker rage in enemies, causing them to attack any nearby combat target indiscriminately. Energy Cost: 10 = 2x4 (double level of Realm Magic - Destruction) + 2 (level of Realm Magic - Emotion) Range: up to 100 yards at -6, but more typically at 10 yards (-3) Duration: 1 minute at -1 Casting time: normally 6 seconds (4 levels of Realm-Destruction plus 2), can reduce to 2 seconds at total -6. Resisted by target's Will, modified by Exldirs' own margin of success. Unlike Fear, which is a direct Emotion Realm spell, Madness requires both Emotion and Destruction. The combination of two Realms thus imposes a -1 modifier. Close combat variant: Two Realms (-1), 1 minute's duration (-1), 10 yards' range (-3), quartered casting time at 2 seconds (-6), effective casting skill at 11. Exldirs may instead opt to use the full six second casting time to bring the total modifiers to -5 instead, casting at effective skill 17. The target may attempt a Will roll to negate, modified by Exldirs' margin of success. Failure means that the living target enters an insane bloodrage, attacking any targets - friend or foe. Raise Blightlurch - create minor undead servitors from corpses. In D&D, Atropal Scions create wights (somewhat ill-defined corporeal undead) in their vicinity. GURPS doesn't have wights per se, but we can approximate something close enough by making them Zombies with an Affliction (reduce FP by 1D, with -1 to IQ, DX, and HT). Current working name is "Blightlurch", but can be renamed if better names than "wight" exist. Energy Cost: 9 = 2x3 (Death) +3 (False Creation/Illusion) Range: Touch -0 Duration: 1 day (-3) Casting time: normally 5 seconds (3 levels of Realm-Death plus 2), can reduce to 2 sec at -6. Resistance: None, as target is generally a corpse already. Exldirs floats over the corpse and its close presence or touch raises the corpse as a Blightlurch. If in combat, Exldirs usually rushes the magic at 2 seconds' duration. Effective skill is 22 minus touch distance (-0), two Realms (-1), 2 sec rush (-6), duration 1 day (-3) = 12. This uses the domain of Death and False Creation/Illusion to animate a corpse as a Blightlurch. Stats are the same as a human Zombie, with the addition of a Blight Draining attack (1D FP per hit, as well as temporary -1 to IQ/DX/HT). Entropic Shield - fizzle incoming attacks and spells, at great ER cost Exldirs can engage the entropic power of destruction to intercept incoming matter or spells of which it is aware, rendering most of them potentially ineffective. (This means it usually cannot fizzle attacks coming from behind it, since it isn't aware of them.) Energy Cost: 2x4 = 8 (double Destruction Realm), then doubled again because damage type is Corrosion (to destroy nonliving incoming matter like bolts, arrows, spells, thrown spears) = 16 Range: Touch (-0) Duration: Instantaneous (-0) Casting time: normally 6 seconds (4 levels of Realm-Destruction plus 2), can reduce to instantaneous (as a Blocking Spell) at -12. Resistance: None, as Exldirs is destroying something incoming at touch range. Close shield of nullity: Exldirs destroys objects coming in to touch range. This can also work with incoming missile spells - can treat the energy cost of the spell as its HP. It costs Exldirs 16 ER to do 1D corrosion damage to incoming objects or spells. This effectively a Cosmic level Block at effective skill 10 (22 -12 due to casting time). Presumably Exldirs could also use it to corrode and destroy any polearms or other material impediments that adventurers are trying to put in its way. Advance shield of nullity: Exldirs can also conceivably "detonate" incoming spells and missiles at a distance, if the area of effect of such make them unsafe to destroy at touch distance. To cast this same defense at 2 yards, Exldirs rolls at an effective skill 9 if cast instantaneously, or 12 if cast with 1 second's warning. Energy cost is as above - 16 per 1D corrosion damage. |
11-01-2020, 09:08 AM | #9 |
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The Hall of Fallen Columns
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Re: What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?
An errant question, regarding Realm Magic spell costs.
The usual calculation says the ER or FP cost is double the highest realm level concerned. Question: is that "double the actual Realm level possessed by the caster"? Or is that "double the Realm level required by this spell"? If the caster knows a Realm at level 4 (really powerful changes to reality) but only wants to cast a piddling small spell related to that realm at level 1... is the caster still required to pay 2 x 4 ER, or can he pay 2 x 1 ER to represent the spell's more modest ambitions? |
11-01-2020, 09:17 AM | #10 |
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Re: What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?
It is double the level of the highest Realm required for the effect plus the sum of the other Realms. You should also remember the time required though, which is highest Realm required + 2 seconds, so it is awfully slow. If you are using syntactic magic though, why are using Realm Magic instead of Verb/Noun Magic?
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Tags |
incantation, magic, ritual path magic, thaumatology |
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