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Old 07-12-2014, 06:46 PM   #1
hal
 
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Default Upper body Strength

Hello Folks,
This is NOT a sexist thread intended to hamper players enjoying playing female characters. It is however, an exploration on how to simulate the difference between upper body strength of males versus Females.

What got me onto this thread of thinking, was my prep work converting GURPS CLASSIC CONAN characters over to GURPS 4e. In the GURPS UPDATE download from SJGames, I noted that a character with a ST of 17 in GURPS 3e, should have it revised down to 13 in GURPS, but buy up an extra four levels of Striking Strength to get the characters to where they can do the same level of damage in GURPS 4e, that they did in 3e.

This in turn, sparked a line of thinking along the lines of...

"What if I permitted (for the first time I might add) the purchase of Striking Strength for characters, but tied it into the following scheme:

+1 level, no problem
+2 Levels, requires Fit as an advantage
+3 levels, requires VERY FIT as an advantage.

Then I got to wondering, could I simulate the difference in upper body strength between Males and Females, along the lines of extra Striking Strength or lower lifting strength?

As a consequence of that line of thinking, I would like to explore ways to difference NPC Female warriors from the player characters in play, such as to give female NPC's a decidedly different feel to combats than just going toe to toe with stock GURPS characters where it is a character, whether male or female.

So, thoughts?
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Old 07-12-2014, 06:56 PM   #2
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Default Re: Upper body Strength

The best way to simulate it would be lower arm strength.

Though personally, if you simply compare average height/weight of men and women, you find that women average -2 ST simply on the basis of the difference of mass. By that measure, a woman who is "as strong as a man" is probably overall as strong as a man. Said differently, most women are weaker than men because they are smaller than most men. A towering, 7-foot tall woman might be slightly weaker "up top" than a 7-foot man, but for the most part, it's not going to matter, because she's sure as hell going to be stronger than you.
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Old 07-12-2014, 07:08 PM   #3
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Default Re: Upper body Strength

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
The best way to simulate it would be lower arm strength.

Though personally, if you simply compare average height/weight of men and women, you find that women average -2 ST simply on the basis of the difference of mass. By that measure, a woman who is "as strong as a man" is probably overall as strong as a man. Said differently, most women are weaker than men because they are smaller than most men. A towering, 7-foot tall woman might be slightly weaker "up top" than a 7-foot man, but for the most part, it's not going to matter, because she's sure as hell going to be stronger than you.
True. And I can work with that as a concept. However, whether I make it that female NPC characters always have +1 Striking Strength (effectively making them -1 to lifting strength), then I will have a ready made methodology for creating those NPCs and having them fight differently than either of the Male or Female player characters.

Now, imagine if you will, what might happen were I to routinely give the NPC women fighters, +1 Striking Strength, a ST of 9, but then also gave them extra fatigue (3 levels) for use with fevered defense etc. It would make them "fight" differently at the gaming table, and it wouldn't feel the same as if I gave them stock fighters whose attributes were the same whether male or female, etc.
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Old 07-12-2014, 07:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: Upper body Strength

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
True. And I can work with that as a concept. However, whether I make it that female NPC characters always have +1 Striking Strength (effectively making them -1 to lifting strength), then I will have a ready made methodology for creating those NPCs and having them fight differently than either of the Male or Female player characters.

Now, imagine if you will, what might happen were I to routinely give the NPC women fighters, +1 Striking Strength, a ST of 9, but then also gave them extra fatigue (3 levels) for use with fevered defense etc. It would make them "fight" differently at the gaming table, and it wouldn't feel the same as if I gave them stock fighters whose attributes were the same whether male or female, etc.
In Cherry Blossom Rain, I just gave a flat -2 to ST (but left point totals the same). The PCs could have ignored this, but largely remained true to it. The female PCs (with female players) preferred to focus on alternate strategies, like Push, Power Blow, precision strikes to hit locations or armor chinks/gaps. Simply lowering strength is enough to get a different fighting style, especially if you allow the more cinematic options to flourish in your game. Because GURPS has a variety of viable fighting styles, a lower strength is not a death-knell to a character. The "stereotypical" low-ST female fighter just becomes a DX-focused fighter.

I personally see nothing wrong with physically strong Red Sonja, Brienne types. They're on the far end of their bell-curve, but so are their magic-flinging, excalibur-wielding, dragon-slaying male compatriots. The lower ST is mostly informative, not really prescriptive.

(I'm not arguing against your approach, though I do note that lower mass tends to mean lower HP, and the "upper body" thing mostly translates to arm ST. That is, if I said "How do I make a cyborg with twice the upper-body strength of a normal man?" the answer would be "Arm ST +5")
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Old 07-13-2014, 02:21 AM   #5
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Default Re: Upper body Strength

For women I'd use the following template:

Quote:
ST-2, HP+1
That's it, women have double the amount of fat than men, so, on average, they have more HP, but since they are smaller, they have lower ST.
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Old 07-13-2014, 02:32 AM   #6
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Default Re: Upper body Strength

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
For women I'd use the following template:



That's it, women have double the amount of fat than men, so, on average, they have more HP, but since they are smaller, they have lower ST.
Except that muscle acts to blunt injury almost as much as fat.
And more muscle allows more fat to be carried with minimal trouble.

Men can't go lower than 5% without health problems and even then they're on the razor's edge for developing malnutrition and other issues without strict care.

Women can go almost as low but stop menstruating, which alone isn't horrible except psychologically and culturally.
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Old 07-13-2014, 02:36 AM   #7
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Default Re: Upper body Strength

Apply the -1 or-2 to ST, or whatever adjustment you decide on, as a Lens, ie does not count against Disadvantage Limit.
Lower upper body ST as a stat is a problem to calculate but higher leg ST is simpler?
eg
?
Lens: Global Average Woman [-15]: ST-2, Leg ST+1.
Leg ST [3, 5, 8/lvl] counts for kicking and Basic Lift for Enc purposes but not for actual lifting.
?
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Old 07-13-2014, 04:48 AM   #8
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Default Re: Upper body Strength

I can't quite see the realism rationale for making a female template with higher striking strength than lifting strenght. I've grappled, wrestled and done judo with many strong women, and I've also seen many of them lift, and while they are on the average at a disadvantage to people of equal size with higher testosterone levels, I've generally been more impressed with how much they lift and their muscle endruance than their explosiveness. This anecdotal impression is supported by the KO stats in boxing and MMA when comparing male and female fighters at the same weight. There is definitely a smaller discrepancy when comparing lower body strength, but it's still there even so. ST-2, Leg ST +1 sounds pretty good to me.

I'm not sure how to simulate the near-immunity to muscle fatigue that some trained women seem to have, but I'm pretty impressed by it. I start out stronger, but I also fade more quickly.
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Old 07-13-2014, 05:56 AM   #9
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Default Re: Upper body Strength

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
So, thoughts?
This was discussed quite a lot many years ago, so here's a link:

Women and Strength

Luther, who I haven't seen post in a long time, wrote the OP of that thread as well as a number of other posts. Advanced searching the terms "women" "strength" and author "Luthor" leads you to several additional old threads.
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Old 07-13-2014, 09:13 AM   #10
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Default Re: Upper body Strength

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
Women and Strength

Luther, who I haven't seen post in a long time, wrote the OP of that thread…
Luther sites sources; he's not simply offering an opinion based on anecdotal experience. Based on the data he gathered, he distilled the information into GURPS stats. IMHO, his is the definitive work on the differences in strength between men and women.
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