Cosmic Pools for "Super Gadgeteers"

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Rev_Pee_Kitty

I don't believe that's explicit at all, no. In fact, it states: "You can use a prepared ability normally -- either immediately or at a later time (...) if your ability has continuing effects, you can maintain them once activated."

First off, this isn't the crux of my disagreement: I don't believe you are using "takes extra time" in a legal way.

In other words, the difference between Takes Extra Time and Preparation Requires is (by definition) that Prep Req lets you "charge" your ability up and then make use of it later on. Otherwise, why would anyone take it when they would get a better point break from Takes Extra Time?

I don't allow extra time for an advantage that isn't going to be played out in an emergency. If you have to go home to use an advantage, it's usually going to be pretty trivial that you have to spend 15 minutes there. You're awarding a lot more for "requires extra time" than you would for "must make a trip home."

Specifically Takes Extra Time says: "You can only apply this limitation to abilities that require time to activate and that work fast enough to be useful in an emergency (e.g., combat)." Gadgeteering doesn't, and anything requiring minutes doesn't.

If you want to interpret it otherwise, fine -- but then, why would anyone in your game ever take Prep Req when it's canonically (explicitly) allowed to use Takes Extra Time instead?

It's not canon to use "Takes Extra Time" for extended tasks. That's certainly a different limitation, and what I've been using "Prep Required" for.

So, a character with Preparation Required, 8 Hours, has to spend 8 hours every single time he wants to change his Cosmic Pool, and that's not a limitation? The fact that he can change it "on the fly" after he's put in the time makes it less of one than Takes Extra Time, sure, but it's still a solid limitation.

I believe we're quibbling over the value of that limitation, not that it's a limitation. If you consider a trip home a -40% limitation, then I'ld argue 15 minutes of time isn't worth -100% based on the notion that a trip home probably will take longer than 15 minutes most of the time.

The way you're using Preparation Required is inheriently much less of a limitation on Modular Abilities than on other advantages. For example, Preparation Required on DR would only be useful it it clicks off after a while. You're imposing no such restriction on Modular Abilities.

Furthermore, other uses require you to prep a single use on a single advantage even if there are multiple ways you use that prep time. Say a character can prep DR, ST, and Flight by mediation. Normally you would have to choose. You're implying if you bought them through a modular pool you can choose between the three with a single meditation. That's quite an advantage.

Sure you can consider Modular Abilities an ability that you use by swapping points around, but that's really a meta-gaming approach that isn't balanced with how other abilities interact with that limitation. OTOH, I consider Modular Abilities an undetermined pool of abilities that you can choose from. Under that view it's simple to see why you actually be prep'ing the ability you are going to use instead of just points. I'ld suggest that most game views agree. Gadgeteers work on an invention, not just a collection of bits and pieces they can throw together to do anything at the last second.

I respect your opinion, but I believe you're interpreting Preparation Required differently than it was intended.

Likewise, I respect your opinion on Preparation Required and certainly see where it can be justified by the text in the rulebook.

My main point, however, is that you're using "Takes Extra Time" in way that it's not intended or balanced.

[PK]

Originally Posted by naloth

Specifically Takes Extra Time says: "You can only apply this limitation to abilities that require time to activate and that work fast enough to be useful in an emergency (e.g., combat)." Gadgeteering doesn't, and anything requiring minutes doesn't.

But only because you added Takes Extra Time!!! Without that, a character in his lab could rearrange his points in one second!

That's like saying, "You can't add 10 levels of Takes Extra Time to Innate Attack, because then you're adding Takes Extra Time to an ability that doesn't work fast enough to be useful in combat."

Cosmic Pool normally takes one second to use. That's certainly fast enough to be used in combat. The only reason this takes 5d minutes is because I added Takes Extra Time!

Honestly, that's like me writing up an ability as "Water Hose -- Crushing Attack 5d (No Wounding, -50%; Accessibility, Must be touching a hydrant, -30%)" and you saying it's not valid to put that Accessibility on there since the attack already requires that you be touching a hydrant.

I believe we're quibbling over the value of that limitation, not that it's a limitation. If you consider a trip home a -40% limitation, then I'ld argue 15 minutes of time isn't worth -100% based on the notion that a trip home probably will take longer than 15 minutes most of the time.

I am not saying a trip home is worth -40%. I'm saying "you have to find the nearest appropriate location" is worth -40%. "Accessibility, Only when Underwater" means two seconds of "travel" if you're standing by an ocean and five hours of "travel" if you're in the middle of a desert. You have to price it based on how likely it is to come up. "Labs Only" is worth -40%, IMHO.

Furthermore, other uses require you to prep a single use on a single advantage even if there are multiple ways you use that prep time. Say a character can prep DR, ST, and Flight by mediation. Normally you would have to choose. You're implying if you bought them through a modular pool you can choose between the three with a single meditation. That's quite an advantage.

Nope. Prep Req specificially says you can only have one ability "ready" at a time.

My main point, however, is that you're using "Takes Extra Time" in way that it's not intended or balanced.

I'm using it to turn a 1-second activation time into a 17-minute activation time. Considering that that is exactly what Takes Extra Time does, I must disagree.

You're trying to say that it's not kosher to use Takes Extra Time to make a nearly-instant ability take extra time. That's just ludicrous -- unless I'm completely misunderstanding you, which I certainly hope is the case.

[naloth]

First of all, let me say that this is a quibble, and probably a difference of play style. It's not a major stumbling block, it's more of an opportunity to arrive at a price that feels fair to me.

Originally Posted by Rev_Pee_Kitty

That's like saying, "You can't add 10 levels of Takes Extra Time to Innate Attack, because then you're adding Takes Extra Time to an ability that doesn't work fast enough to be useful in combat."

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Since "Takes Extra Time" is only a limitation to those abilities that work fast enough to be used in combat, any level of it that obviously won't have an impact in that sort of situation is a meaningless limitation. Basically you're pricing "not in combat type situations" based on the (rather insigifinicant) downtime a character needs to take to use their abilities. Of course, you may account for every second a character uses. I don't.

I further this by looking at other limitations that are priced for use in combat type situations and out. Consider Takes Recharge: 5 sec -10%, Takes 15 sec -20%, Takes an hour -30%. Longer - see limited use. One level is reasonable for combat, two possible, and the third a lot longer. I'ld suggest that's the difference between pricing for combat time and "ok, you spend an hour doing something" time.

If "Takes Extra Time" was intended to represent any level of time extra time consumed outside of combat type situations then there would be no need to suggest that it's only appropriate for abilities that you would be using in combat.

Honestly, that's like me writing up an ability as "Water Hose -- Crushing Attack 5d (No Wounding, -50%; Accessibility, Must be touching a hydrant, -30%)" and you saying it's not valid to put that Accessibility on there since the attack already requires that you be touching a hydrant.

No, it's more like getting -50% Accessiblity for touching a hydrant and then trying to claim another -30% for needing water. "-40% requires a lab" already implies that you won't be using it in combat type situations.

I am not saying a trip home is worth -40%. I'm saying "you have to find the nearest appropriate location" is worth -40%. "Accessibility, Only when Underwater" means two seconds of "travel" if you're standing by an ocean and five hours of "travel" if you're in the middle of a desert. You have to price it based on how likely it is to come up. "Labs Only" is worth -40%, IMHO.

Yes, but this is a time based limitation. If you assume that you'll constantly have a lab, it's a worthless limitation. If you assume that labs are as easy to find as a woman or man it's only a -20% limitation. Obviously, you're pricing it as something that's relatively hard to come by even though you know that every gadgeteer will have what then need to work with a bit of travel.

Nope. Prep Req specificially says you can only have one ability "ready" at a time.

I don't think you understood. If you have a modular pool that allows you to allocate your points between those abilities, you're saying you can prep all three at the same time. Given a situation where you'll have multiple abilities with "Preparation Required" the limitation that you can only prep one at a time vs any will quickly lead to using Modular Abilities.

Cost bias of 3 abilities taking w/"prep required" is close to what it would take to use Modular Abilities at -80%. It's certainly not hard to do with 4 abilities.

You're trying to say that it's not kosher to use Takes Extra Time to make a nearly-instant ability take extra time. That's just ludicrous -- unless I'm completely misunderstanding you, which I certainly hope is the case.

No... I'm saying that Takes Extra Time is for combat type abilties for use during combat type situations.

You're using Takes Extra Time to convert combat type abilties into extended time tasks and reaping enormous limitations on it in the process. A lot of other abilities that normally take a single turn can easily be reduced to 1/5 their normal cost by simply adding 4 minutes of usage time...

[PK]

Originally Posted by naloth

First of all, let me say that this is a quibble, and probably a difference of play style. It's not a major stumbling block, it's more of an opportunity to arrive at a price that feels fair to me.

Fair enough. I think this will end up having to be an "agree to disagree" thing, myself. By the way, I was rereading my last post and I think it came across a bit rude -- my apologies if that was the case. You're one of several people on the forums whose feedback I'm hoping for when I post something like this.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Rev_Pee_Kitty

Fair enough. I think this will end up having to be an "agree to disagree" thing, myself. By the way, I was rereading my last post and I think it came across a bit rude -- my apologies if that was the case. You're one of several people on the forums whose feedback I'm hoping for when I post something like this.

Thanks. I appreciate your feedback and views as well. I wasn't the offended by your post at all, though it did seem like you were getting a bit excited.

[Izaegraa]

REV...when i first read this, i disliked this setup for a gadget type guy i was making...but the more i understand about what advantages are around, how things, work, and develope the character...the more i think this might be really apprpiate for my guy. at least something similar. a few questions for you though...

Base assumtions = MA: cosmic ( gadget pool ) of 20pts to arrange, physical only...this differes a bit from your origional which had mental and physical. ( i am curious about the reasoning to keep mental?

1- How do you " arrange" a smoke bomb, which is basicallt disposable?

2- If the super gadget you make from the pool is breakable, and it does get broken, how do you regain access to the pool, to make another gadget?

3- How long to said super gadgets last?

4-If i made super speed boots, but they get stolen...can i just make a trek back to my high tech lab, buy some parts and widgets, spend some time, and gain use of my pool again, and if so, what would happen to the stolen boots from earlier?? kinda tramples on Q2 and 3

5-can these rules be applied to potions if you also an alchemist?

6-In a fantasy world...would a quick gadgeteer be able to use a portable engineer kit, a table, and the contents of a basic house < you might have broken into to avoid being cought by law enforcement> to super gadget an escape device in your opinion?


Thanks
Izaegraa

[PK]

Originally Posted by Izaegraa

REV...when i first read this, i disliked this setup for a gadget type guy i was making...but the more i understand about what advantages are around, how things, work, and develope the character...the more i think this might be really apprpiate for my guy. at least something similar. a few questions for you though...

Sure thing, and please note that I've changed the limitation based on the feedback in this thread as well as some serious playtesting. Visit the following for an updated, better version:

http://www.mygurps.com/r_gadgetpool.html

Base assumtions = MA: cosmic ( gadget pool ) of 20pts to arrange, physical only...this differes a bit from your origional which had mental and physical. ( i am curious about the reasoning to keep mental?

Because I've found that gadgeteers often want to build "mind control helmets" and "telepathic communication bracelets", which requires Mental advantages to do.

1- How do you " arrange" a smoke bomb, which is basicallt disposable?

Well, the default assumption with Obscure (Ranged) is that you can throw multiple smoke bombs, so you're building more of a set of them. If you can only throw one, give Obscure (not the MA) Limited Use. When you're out of uses, you have to reorganize the pool.

2- If the super gadget you make from the pool is breakable, and it does get broken, how do you regain access to the pool, to make another gadget?

Just rebuild, using the parts. The downtime is enough of a drawback that it still sucks.

3- How long to said super gadgets last?

Indefinitely. They last until broken (if breakable) or until you rearrange the MA pool to build a new gadget.

4-If i made super speed boots, but they get stolen...can i just make a trek back to my high tech lab, buy some parts and widgets, spend some time, and gain use of my pool again, and if so, what would happen to the stolen boots from earlier?? kinda tramples on Q2 and 3

Personally, I'd allow it -- with the understanding that your super speed bots are no longer under your control in any way (after all, you had to dismantle the control mechanism for them to free up the points), so they're going to be new Allies for your Enemy...

5-can these rules be applied to potions if you also an alchemist?

Probably, yeah. I don't see why not, if you're willing to build each potion with advantages.

6-In a fantasy world...would a quick gadgeteer be able to use a portable engineer kit, a table, and the contents of a basic house < you might have broken into to avoid being cought by law enforcement> to super gadget an escape device in your opinion?

A basic house? Doubtful. Maybe with some seriously penalized Scrounging rolls. The limitation specifically states that you need a lab -- now, Quick Gadgeteers can work out of darn near anything even close to a lab, but a normal home isn't close to a lab.

[Kirby]

I've used several variations on this ability in my campaign; I don't always use all of the limitations on this build, but I've used each in at least one build.

FWIW, I decide whether my supergadgeteer character uses Preparation Required or Takes Extra Time based on precisely the consideration RPK suggested -- i.e., whether the character can decide what gadget s/he has built on the fly, after Preparation, or has to build it immediately after the Extra Time.

So thumbs up; it's a good build.

--K

[Izaegraa]

I see...so if i wanted to relax the limitation for lab work a bit, and make it more of a 10 - 15% limitation for suitable area, how would that be worded? So a quick gadgeteers " suitable area" might be a large flat area< to sit his tools and parts out>where he can concentrate < i.e. not in the middle of combat>for whatever time is needed, a light source he can function by < be helpful if you can see what your doing>??could it be something like

* Physical and Mental ( +100%)
*Accessability( -15% ) only in a relatively calm area with a good work area , ample lighting, and appropriate tools
*Limited Focus ( -5% ) super science gadgets, and the parts needed
*Limited Traits ( -20% ) advantages with gadget limitations
*Requires an IQ roll ( -10% ) after required time
*Takes Extra time ( - 80% ) 4 minutes 16seconds per advantage
*Requires All-Out manuever ( - 25% )
*Neusance Effect ( -5% ) most gadgets are wierd looking, awkward to use, and definately not common to see. This results in a -1 reaction penalty while using one.

relatively calm, good area and parts from accessability would change depending on what kind of gadgeteer , or not, you happen to be and ample lighting could be torches or some kind of night vision so it wouldnt trample other advantages i dont think.

You need parts, but how many and what might change depending on gadgeteering and what you were making and you have to concentrate really hard to the exclusion of everything else while building.

In the fantasy setting im in, drainign the power grid or such isnt an option, but to relatively low tech populace, im sure higher tech stuff is wierd to put it lightly.

I looked at your house rules and i think it might be better, but my GM prefers to go more by the books than house rules from the net so to speak. I doubt i can get it by him, and the point break wont even matter to him, hell say " if thats what the book says"and seems to embelish players in our cinematic campaign anyways.


The net result is -60%, for a cost of 4 points per 1 point pool for mental and physical. Is this workable, and are the accessability low % enough to allow" work in the field" if centrain mundane prep is done like clearing space, packing supplies, and taking the time??

Thanks
Izaegraa