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Old 05-14-2021, 08:06 AM   #51
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Examples of failed self-control rolls in fiction

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Boromir tries to take the Ring from Frodo because the Ring causes people to believe that they can get everything they want or need by using it. With the Ring I can command armies to victory. With the Ring I can create the greatest garden in Middle-earth. With the Ring people will serve me fresh fish from the sea every day. If you had to pick a disadvantage that the Ring induces in people, it's probably Megalomania (and it would probably be a straight Will roll to avoid acquiring it). It may or may not be accompanied by a Delusion. (With the Ring, Boromir actually COULD defeat Sauron, but Gollum would never get servants bringing him fresh fish daily. We already know what Gollum will do with the Ring because he already did it.)
I feel it's likely more along the lines of an Obsession* with the Ring (specifically, possessing it for oneself), and then possession and use of the Ring causes the character to gain Corruption, in turn causing them to gain more personal Disadvantages. Why the character thinks he's obsessed will vary depending on character - Galadriel would believe she could lead Middle Earth into a new Golden Age and Boromir that he could overthrow Sauron and make Gondor great (again), while those without lofty goals may simply say "After all, why not? Why shouldn't I keep it?" I similarly don't recall Gollum ever thinking the Ring would get him servants (he didn't seem to have any plans for it, other than getting it back), and it's debatable that Boromir would have been able to defeat Sauron with it. He certainly could give him a run for his money, at least, but I feel a Ring-equipped Aragorn would be a closer match to Sauron (a Ring-equipped Galadriel or Gandalf would have completely overwhelmed Sauron, of course).

*Incidentally, Obsession: Keep Caster Safe, All The Time +40% is a pretty ridiculous Enhancement for Affliction, as it turns an enemy into an ally for less than it would have cost to disable the enemy instead.
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Old 05-14-2021, 08:43 AM   #52
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Default Re: Examples of failed self-control rolls in fiction

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I feel it's likely more along the lines of an Obsession with the Ring (specifically, possessing it for oneself),
Yes, the Ring probably does that, too.

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Why the character thinks he's obsessed will vary depending on character
Yes, and that's why I picked Megalomania. "You believe that you are a superman, that you have been chosen for some great task, or that you are destined to conquer." The Ring causes or threatens to cause all of those states in people over the course of the story. Megalomania forces you to pursue that personalized goal.

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I similarly don't recall Gollum ever thinking the Ring would get him servants (he didn't seem to have any plans for it, other than getting it back),
"'See, my precious: if we has it, the we can escape, even from Him, eh? Perhaps we grow very strong, stronger than Wraiths. Lord Sméagol? Gollum the Great? The Gollum! Eat fish every day, three times a day, fresh from the sea. Most Precious Gollum! Must have it. We wants it, we wants it, we wants it!'"

He doesn't actually say the word servants, but do you think Lord Sméagol, stronger than Wraiths, is going to be catching his own fish, eh, precious?

Let's also remember the primary purpose of the One Ring: it is used to dominate the wills of others. With it, if your power is great enough, you can directly control others who are wearing Rings of Power. You can influence and command the wills of others. If someone already enslaved to the Ring swears by it, you can put it on and command him to do anything, even kill himself. This is what Gollum is envisioning.

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and it's debatable that Boromir would have been able to defeat Sauron with it. He certainly could give him a run for his money, at least,
Yes, it's debatable, but it's definitely within the realm of possibility.

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but I feel a Ring-equipped Aragorn would be a closer match to Sauron
Obviously. Aragorn was more like the people of ancient Númenór; Boromir was more like the Middle-men. Aragorn was the rightful king; Boromir merely the son of the Steward.

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(a Ring-equipped Galadriel or Gandalf would have completely overwhelmed Sauron, of course).
Possibly. Even this is not a given.

The point of all this is that the Ring doesn't induce Overconfidence in you. Overconfidence is when you believe yourself to be more capable than you really are. The Ring doesn't necessarily do that: some of the Ring-induced fantasies that characters have are quite achievable.

Maybe Ring-induced fantasies start out as Obsessions (not a Obsession with the Ring, but an Obsession about achieving the fantasy) that can be overridden with a self-control roll, and they only become Megalomania once you've claimed the Ring for yourself. These could be quite dramatic, with the self-control number of the Obsession getting steadily lower and lower, until finally it transforms entirely into uncontrollable Megalomania. I quite like that.
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Old 05-14-2021, 07:35 PM   #53
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Default Re: Examples of failed self-control rolls in fiction

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No, Boromir doesn't have Overconfidence. He doesn't swagger around believing he can handle anything that comes his way.
I agree that it's a borderline case and that the Ring was definitely exerting a malign influence on him at the time. If he had Overconfidence it was the quiet but potentially deadly type along the lines of "I alone can save Gondor."

Certainly, however, the Ring had somehow singled him out as the party member most susceptible to influence and was somehow able to play on his fears and weaknesses.

Most dominant was his Sense of Duty to Gondor, but Sense of Duty isn't a disadvantage which allows a self-control roll per RAW. (Arguably, it could allow a self-control roll, if you can attempt to ignore your Sense of Duty when it is necessary to do so.)

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Boromir never quit the Fellowship. He was responsible for the capture of Merry and Pippin only in that Frodo ran away from him, which meant he didn't return to the camp, and so everyone panicked and ran around looking for him, and Merry and Pippin ran into a bunch of orcs.
You're right, but haring off into the unknown with felonious intentions towards another party member, making other party members split up to look for you while deep in enemy territory, and then stumbling into an ambush is functionally the same as "quitting the party." Getting yourself killed, 2 party members captured, and the party in a state where it has to split into thirds definitely counts as breaking up the Fellowship!

Practically, this is exactly the sort of dumbass behavior that player characters might indulge in, either due to good roleplaying or an impulsive player.

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I might give him a quirk of "Defends the honor of Gondor; reacts at -1 to anyone who seems to slight it."
This might stand on its own, but also consider the possibility that it's part of a modified Chivalric or Viking Code of Honor, with other tenets like "Don't brook insults to yourself, your lord, or your country. Serve your liege faithfully. Keep your word once given. Back your words with action. Death before dishonor." This could be demoted to a Quirk depending on how closely he observes it.

Tolkien never explicitly gives his characters Codes of Honor, but the good guys clearly have a very strong sense of "fair play" at least as it applies to "civilized" (i.e., non-orc) opponents and very strong internal motivations to fight the forces of evil.
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Old 05-15-2021, 09:50 AM   #54
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Default Re: Examples of failed self-control rolls in fiction

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Most dominant was his Sense of Duty to Gondor, but Sense of Duty isn't a disadvantage which allows a self-control roll per RAW. (Arguably, it could allow a self-control roll, if you can attempt to ignore your Sense of Duty when it is necessary to do so.)
The Ring twisted Sense of Duty (Gondor) into Obsession (Protect Gondor). Smeagol was already kind of selfish when he found the Ring, so that one was easy. Bilbo and Frodo both possessed the Ring for years before showing much corruption. Sam offers to take the Ring to relieve Frodo's burden for a while, but Frodo refuses, and the Ring can't twist Sense of Duty (Frodo) into anything that would mean betraying Frodo.
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Old 05-15-2021, 01:08 PM   #55
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Default Re: Examples of failed self-control rolls in fiction

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The Ring twisted Sense of Duty (Gondor) into Obsession (Protect Gondor). Smeagol was already kind of selfish when he found the Ring, so that one was easy. Bilbo and Frodo both possessed the Ring for years before showing much corruption. Sam offers to take the Ring to relieve Frodo's burden for a while, but Frodo refuses, and the Ring can't twist Sense of Duty (Frodo) into anything that would mean betraying Frodo.
A good example of one of the lessons Tolkien was trying to impart. Sam especially (and hobbits in general) must have been incredibly frustrating for whatever intelligence the One Ring had.
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Old 05-16-2021, 04:58 AM   #56
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Default Re: Examples of failed self-control rolls in fiction

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A good example of one of the lessons Tolkien was trying to impart. Sam especially (and hobbits in general) must have been incredibly frustrating for whatever intelligence the One Ring had.
But AIUI Gollem (Sméagol) was a Stoor, one of the three early Hobbit-types and the Ring corrupted him the moment he laid eyes on it causing him to kill the person who had found it.
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Old 05-16-2021, 05:46 AM   #57
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Default Re: Examples of failed self-control rolls in fiction

MacBeth fails some kind of self-control roll when he kills Duncan and then later Banquo. Obsession (King of Scotland)? There should be an Ambitious disadvantage, similar to Greed but for power?
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Old 05-16-2021, 06:43 AM   #58
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Default Re: Examples of failed self-control rolls in fiction

In the Good Place, Chidi dies of his Indecisive disadvantage because he’s stuck standing under a air conditioning unit while he takes two hours to pick a restaurant. He also has Charitable. Jason throws many an inopportune Molotov cocktail thanks to his Impulsiveness. Tahani pulls a statue on herself and dies of it thanks to her Selfish. Eleanor feels like she has something early on when she’s acting out at Tahani’s party, but I think maybe it’s Odious Personal Habit (Dirtbag) or something like that. She definitely develops Selfless and maybe even Charitable.
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Old 05-16-2021, 07:39 AM   #59
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Default Re: Examples of failed self-control rolls in fiction

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But AIUI Gollem (Sméagol) was a Stoor, one of the three early Hobbit-types and the Ring corrupted him the moment he laid eyes on it causing him to kill the person who had found it.
By all accounts, the negative traits of Gollum were prefigured in Smeagol (albeit to a lesser degree) even before he found the ring. It seems to be a recurring theme in Tolkein that Evil can't create ex nihilo, but must twist what already exists to its ends.
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Old 05-16-2021, 12:33 PM   #60
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Default Re: Examples of failed self-control rolls in fiction

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By all accounts, the negative traits of Gollum were prefigured in Smeagol (albeit to a lesser degree) even before he found the ring. It seems to be a recurring theme in Tolkein that Evil can't create ex nihilo, but must twist what already exists to its ends.
Also, his friend (also a hobbit) was IIRC far less affected. It seems that Sméagol was an unusually messed up hobbit; so, the exception that tests the rule, not proof that the idea is bad.
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