[DF] Critique My Western-Style Dragon as a Solo Boss Encounter

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Stripe

Question: What SM would a miniature that uses a 50 mm round base be? 40 mm?

Depends on scale, and on the size of the dragon relative to its base. For a scale with 25mm minis (standard GW scale), the base is 4 yards across, the dragon, depending on how its installed on the base, might be anywhere from 4 to 10 yards (SM +2 to +4).

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Stripe

It appears as though Mailanka and are on similar tracks, even SM 4, ST 40. Looks like I have them at one more dice on the breath attack, though. Still, that alone wouldn't change their balance.

He gave his dragons a whopping DR 30, though. Wow. Actually, maybe that's not a whole lot tougher than DR 6 (Tough Skin) + DR 6 (Hardened 1) + halved injury. Still, it's certainly tougher, unless he allows players to target chinks in his dragon's armor. In that case, mine's tougher by a long shot.

Targeting chinks in dragon's scales is a staple of the genre, so I do want to incorporate it.

Anyone used Mailanka's dragons and if so, how was the balance for your PC group? Did you allow targeting chinks in their armor?

First, keep in mind that my stuff wasn't playtested when I put it out, and it's also old. Other people can speak more to how well balanced they were. A lot of my design came from tinkering with point values more than anything else, and while that's GENERALLY balanced, kinda sorta if you squint at it, it's not always. So, caveats and all that.

Even so, in my meager DF experience, strong weapon masters and high magery wizards can put out some pretty spectacular damage, and that's before people start getting into weird crap like maledictions and other effects that bypass DR. The first knight I created, a Catfolk Knight, dealt 3d+9 cutting damage with his greatsword. Make that a fine greatsword with puissance and penetrating, and you're looking 3d+11(2) cutting, which will do an average of 9 damage vs DR 30. That's not really out of reach for an experience delver. I also played a wizard with Magery 6 and 20 points of energy reserve. He couldn't do it often, but if he needed an 6dx3 imp ice dagger, he could pull it off. Hit Chevalier in the vitals with that, and you'll deal an average of 90 damage.

I'm not saying DR 30 is a good idea, just that in my experience it's not unbeatable in a game like DF. When I see some of the stuff Kromm and Del'Orto talk about, it seems no less unreasonable than homongenous steel golems of DOOM. Check out some of the less reasonable monsters in DF 13: Monsters 1 (The Flame Lord has Unkillable 1, and the Ice Wyrm (43 HP and 43 ablative DR) and so on. I suspect this is why I hear few complaints. In a way, DF kinda balances itself.

Note, too, that Chevalier is an "Epic boss." He's not a common, end-of-dungeon character, but more of an end-of-arc character, and he's someone you're meant to problem solve, rather than beat on until he's dead. There's actually quite a few bosses like that. You have to find a way around that DR!

[Stripe]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Depends on scale, and on the size of the dragon relative to its base. For a scale with 25mm minis (standard GW scale), the base is 4 yards across, the dragon, depending on how its installed on the base, might be anywhere from 4 to 10 yards (SM +2 to +4).

For some reason, I was thinking it could be determined exactly how many hexes a creature fills from SM, but after rereading p. B392, I see that's not the case. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Note, too, that Chevalier is an "Epic boss." He's not a common, end-of-dungeon character, but more of an end-of-arc character, and he's someone you're meant to problem solve, rather than beat on until he's dead. There's actually quite a few bosses like that. You have to find a way around that DR!

Sure. That's cool. And, DR 30 may be the way to go for me, too.

The dragon I'm designing will be the very most final encounter in a long series of adventures as well. It will come after a litch in the ruins of a necropolis-surrounded cathedral. No idea right now how many points the PCs will be at, but I know for certain they will have kick ass equipment.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

I'm not saying DR 30 is a good idea, just that in my experience it's not unbeatable in a game like DF. When I see some of the stuff Kromm and Del'Orto talk about, it seems no less unreasonable than homongenous steel golems of DOOM. Check out some of the less reasonable monsters in DF 13: Monsters 1 (The Flame Lord has Unkillable 1, and the Ice Wyrm (43 HP and 43 ablative DR) and so on. I suspect this is why I hear few complaints. In a way, DF kinda balances itself.

Heck, C31R07 (from Basic) will whomp most boss monsters (or groups of PCs who don't have access to resist fire and deflect missiles).

[Stripe]

If I remember correctly, when I hear about about weight, hit points, and strength, I hear a lot about the cube root of such and such. I think ST/HP is the cube root of weight (in lbs.?), but I'm not at all sure. I wouldn't know how much to make a dragon weigh anyways!

If a winged quadruped dragon is SM 4 and 30' long from the end of its nose to the tip of its tail and has ST 40 and 40 HP:

How much ST/HP should a SM 2 dragon have? The Slorn from DFM1 is SM 2 with ST/HP of 25, so I'll probably use that.

But, how about SM 3? SM 5? SM 6?

It would be really nice and make for round numbers if I could realistically make an SM 0 hatchling have ST 10 and from there, multiply SM by 10 to get ST (e.g., SM 4 = ST 40, SM 5 = ST 50, etc.).

Here's what I would like to use, if it's reasonable:

1. Hatchling, SM 0 (5 feet long, 2 hexes, reach C tail), ST 10;
2. Young, SM 2 (15 feet long, 5 hexes, reach C-2 tail), ST 20;
3. Adolescent, SM 3 (20 feet long, 6 hexes, reach C-3 tail), ST 30;
4. Young Adult, SM 4 (25 feet long, 8 hexes, reach C-4 tail), ST 40;
5. Mature Adult, SM 4(30 feet long, 10 hexes, reach C-4 tail), ST 45;
6. Ancient, SM 5 (45 feet long, 15 hexes, reach C-5 tail), ST 50;
7. Monstrous, SM 6 (60 feet long, 20 hexes, reach C-6 tail), ST 60.

Other than ST, that's right in line pretty close with everything in the Dragons book.

As for their weight, though I never was a fan of dinosaurs, I did some research on the tyrannosaurus, just to get a rough estimate.

It seems that the actual weight of the lizard might be much less due to species-specific aspects, but if we go for the one of the lightest estimates, an SM 5 dragon at 45 feet from nose to tail dragon could weight around 12,000 lbs.

For a good idea of size, the green tyro in the following picture is 42 feet long (SM 5) from nose to tail and is the largest tyro ever found: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ttheropods.png

Apparently from looking at that picture, at 42 feet long (SM 5), it's tail is very roughly 4-5 yards in length. We could easily say it's 4 yards/hexes in length to keep it in line with striker rules. No, on second thought, let's give it the Long 1 modifier and add a hex of reach to every age group except hatchling.

Someone want to help me figure weight, strength, hit points and wingspan from all that? :D

Thanks!

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Stripe

How much ST/HP should a SM 2 dragon have?

Baseline ST from SM is 5 x size in hexes, and thus we can say:
Hatching, SM 0: ST 10, 2 hexes length
Young, SM 2: ST 20, 4 hexes length
Adolescent, SM 3: ST 30, 6 hexes length
Young Adult, SM 4: ST 40, 8 hexes length
Mature Adult, SM 4: ST 50, 10 hexes length
Ancient, SM 5: ST 60, 12 hexes length
Monstrous, SM 5: ST 70, 14 hexes length

As for weight, dragons mock your petty physics. I'd set weight to ST^2. That's moderately reasonable for the hatchling, depending on how you interpret 'size' (does it include the tail or not), and is ridiculously light for the monstrous dragon, but lets the dragon actually lift its own weight. If you want GURPS-standard weight, use ST^3/8 instead.