Strength Rolls to Cast Spells

[Axly Suregrip]

Once again, feel free to ignore any or all of these suggestions to your house rule:

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

I was thinking of having some method of reducing the cost of spells, maybe talents. So Megahex Sleep (raw fatigue cost 8) might be de facto uncastable at 8x(1+0). But with appropriate talents or use of a staff or some kind of gadget maybe you can get that cost down to 8x(1-2) and it becomes practical. The talent would be very expensive in some way or other, it wouldn't be hugely useful to a starting character casting 2- and 3-point spells but it would be a big deal to a great mage so it gets picked up somewhere in the character's career.

Yes adding a talent makes sense. A talent is better than an item. Also, it can be a side benefit of one or more of the Staff# spells as long as the staff is in hand.


First let's discuss reducing dice verses reducing points on the dice (1-1,etc). Reducing the number of dice is it moves the average by less. This means you may have more than one or two talent/items that reduce it. Of course, maybe you only want one or two. Whichever you decide to go with, just go with one method, otherwise it goes from elegant to a confusing mess.

Also note that the reducing points on the dice method really cannot go beyond -3. At -3 it becomes very easy. At -4 it is broken as the more dice you face the better your chance of success (since it is now -0.5 per dice average). You can still have more than 3 ways to reduce it but cap it at -3. You then hit problems at casting very high ST cost spells (50 ST for example).


Let's look at the parameters of what needs to be done. These are the spells the have the high water mark of strength at climbing IQs for urgent spells. (More complete lists at the bottom):
- Magic Fist IQ 8: 3
- Trailtwister or Trip vs large foe IQ 10: 4
- Summon Bear IQ 11: 5
- Summon Sm Dragon IQ 15: 6
- Create/Destroy Elemental IQ 16: 10 (destroy)
- MHx Freeze IQ 18: 12
The above means at IQ 11 you have your first 5 dice spell "Summon Bear", etc.

If you want wizards to get down to 2 dice in the ST save (so that 8 is a good beginning ST but more is better), then the above means the following:
- need -1 spell ST reducer at IQ 8
- need -2 ST reducers at IQ 10
- need -3 at IQ 11
- need -4 at IQ 15
- need -8 at IQ 16
- need -10 at IQ 18
We just need to get close to this goal.

As far as spells that can be cast without urgency ("slow spells" for short), Create Gate and Restore Device have a cost of 50. Now even using the 1-3 method that would average 25. So with that method there really is not a way to cast these spells. This is why I went with the dice reduction. These kinds of spells assumed other wizards were casting Aid. Also note, these slow spells start with IQ 8 Staff spell at ST 5. So, Halfling wizard with IQ 8 and ST 4 is going to need a way to make his staff.

Therefore, lets continue by assuming it is -1 dice per talent/ability.

The slow spell goals are:
- need to get -3 spell ST reducers at IQ 8
- need open ended way to get up to additional -1, upto -50
- Aid spell to boost ST
- May need new spell for other wizards to Aid to give additional -1 dice instead of +ST, upto -50 (I did not go into this. just an additional thought)


This is what I would suggest:

Spells/Items, then the Staff spells were already built for this. Staff2 and Staff5 were intended to add to a wizards casting. Instead of doing Mana, have each Staff level reduces spell casting die roll by -1 dice but only when the staff is in hand. This would mean these ST save reductions:
- Staff IQ8 -1
- Staff2 IQ11 -2
- Staff3 IQ13 -3
- Staff4 IQ15 -4
- Staff5 IQ17 -5
Staff2 and Staff5 will no long do anything with mana.

Then also added the following "Wizards Only" magical talents. A wizard can gain ST save dice reductions without having to hold a Staff:

Talent "Tap the Flow" IQ=12 IQ cost=1. Prereq: must be a wizard (not available to fighters that can cast magic). Cost is 1 for wizards (does not have double IQ cost as it is a magical talent). Affect: reduces spell casting die roll by -1 dice.

Talent "In the Current" IQ=14 IQ cost=1. Prereq: "Tap the Flow" and must be a wizard (not available to fighters that can cast magic). Cost is 1 for wizards (does not have double IQ cost as it is a magical talent). Affect: reduces spell casting die roll by -2 dice (replaces Tap the Flow -1).

Talent "Nexus of Power" IQ=16 IQ cost=1. Prereq: "In the Current" and must be a wizard (not available to fighters that can cast magic). Cost is 1 for wizards (does not have double IQ cost as it is a magical talent). Affect: reduces spell casting die roll by -3 dice (replaces In the Current -2, etc).


Now we need to add flexible opened end dice reduction for the slow spells or even to help with the fast spells. This will be done in two ways. Allow -1 dice per turn preparing and there is always the Aid spell to boost ST. Or just the Aid spell if you wish. With one or both it makes the higher ST spells attainable. If you go with the "focus for a turn" to reduce the dice by -1, you should cap this, say at -3. It adds a bit of game play.

[Axly Suregrip]

BTW, I put this together to understand what is needed. You may find it helpful.

Addendum:

A note on spells with high dice ST roll (5 or more):

Spells with urgency (as you pointed out.):
- Summon Bear IQ 11: 5
- Summon Gargoyle IQ 13: 5
- Dispel Illusions IQ 14: 5
- Summon Giant IQ 14: 5
- Giant Rope IQ 15: 5
- Summon Sm Dragon IQ 15: 6
- Teleport IQ 15: 1+ (can go high)
- 7Hx Illusion IQ IQ 16: 5
- 7Hx Wall IQ 16: 6
- Create/Destroy Elemental IQ 16: 10 (destroy)
... 10 is the top for a while
- Death Spell IQ 16: ?
- MHx Sleep IQ 16: 8
- Summon Dragon IQ 16: 7
- MHx Freeze IQ 18: 12


Spells that usually have no urgency:
- Staff IQ 8: 5
- Repair IQ 12: 6
- Open Tunnel IQ 13: 10
- Scrying IQ 13: up to 11+
- Explosive Gem IQ14: 5 to 40
- Glamor IQ 14: 10
- Restore Device IQ 14: 12/24/50+
- Summon Lesser Demon IQ 14: 20
- Telepathy IQ 14: 5
- Astral Projection IQ 15: 10
- Calling IQ 15: 5
- Create Gate IQ 15: 50 per side
- Pentagram IQ 15: 6
- Regeneration IQ 15: 30
- Create/Destroy Elemental IQ 16: 6+ (create)
...
I stopped at this point. These can be much more expensive than urgent spells.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

reducing points on the dice method really cannot go beyond -3.

It can, if the minimum per die is 0.

Summon Bear IQ 11: 5

I was thinking 4+1 meant roll 4 dice to cast, add 1 die to any subsequent spell while maintaining it.

If you want wizards to get down to 2 dice in the ST save

Not sure I get this. I don't want the reduction effect to have exactly the same effect as increasing ST. Similarly for the effect of a staff.

"Tap the Flow" IQ=12 IQ cost=1

This is just a must buy at IQ 12. I wanted the decision on whether to buy the talent to be a difficult one.

I think this would work, only big issues I see are:

• How does it interact with ritual creation magic like gates and items.
• How should the pip-reduction talents be priced.
• How do you stop a wizard casting six illusion spells before busting a door down.

[Axly Suregrip]

Hi David,
I am rewriting the whole thing.

First, you had some corrections and concerns.

* Set the minimum per die to 0:
Using the method that each die has a minimum of 0, that moves the last usable value from -3 to -4. At -5 the average die is 1/6 of a point, so a ST 8 person has almost an even chance at casting a ST 50 cost spell. Spells with that high a ST cost are intended for groups of wizards casting Aid. The min of zero makes the pip reduction method viable, so let's go with that instead.

* Maintenance cost affect subsequent spells:
Thank you for the correction. New high water marks and I left the summon spells in as they are common:
- Magic Fist IQ 8: 3
- Trailtwister or Trip vs large foe IQ 10: 4
- Summon Bear IQ 11: 4
- Dispel Illusions IQ 14: 5
- Summon Sm Dragon IQ 15: 5
- 7Hx Wall IQ 16: 6
- Create/Destroy Elemental IQ 16: 10 (destroy)
- MHx Freeze IQ 18: 12

* Target of 2 dice:
Ignore this as I will be changing to the point method. For that matter ignore my whole previous suggestion. New set or rules below.

* Must buy talents:
Really anything we do to make casting stronger spells or all spells easier is going to be a must buy talent. All I can suggest is increasing the learning cost of these talents to make it a question of value. Also, I am going to stay with talents and get away from staffs. The Staff spell has a high cost for IQ8. Thus if a staff is needed to get a staff, it is not ideal.

* Issue: Create Gate and item creation:
Item creation is a separate magic system. For the most part it is all fueled by the Aid spell. Good point that this should be a concern. I am not going to get into it too deep. The new rules make it so that Aid spells work but apprentices will be casting smaller ones. That is, a beginning wizard is not likely to cast an 8 point Aid. So, maybe you need more apprentices for urgent things. But for item creation I don't see why it would change.

* Issue: Pip-reduction talents:
I had none in my previous and now I am rewriting it all to only use this. See below.

* Issue: How to stop wizards from casting 6 illusions:
I thought about this a bit. What I came up with is you cap it by talent level. That is, a wizard can only have 1 illusion of an animate thing (person, bear, etc. Not wall, fire, magical rope). But for each talent level they gain they main cast an additional animate illusion. Also you will want them to have to recast after 12 turns since there is no ST cost to pay to keep it. See below.



First let's take a closer look at what we have to work with.

1 die average using a minimum of 0 per die:

Point 1 die
1+0 3.5
1-1 2.5
1-2 1.667
1-3 1.0
1-4 0.5

Number of dice a Wizard of ST x finds doable but not reliable.
These ST wizards have a fair chance at the listed # of dice (ST cost of spell). That is never less than 50% but as close to it as possible:

Dice ST ST ST ST ST ST ST
Point 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

1+0 1 2 2 2 3 3 3
1-1 2 3 3 3 4 4 5
1-2 3 4 5 5 6 6 7
1-3 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
1-4 13 15 17 19 21 23 25

For example, a ST 8 wizard would want using 1-2 casting would have a fair chance at casting a spell with a cost of 5.

With the values in the above table and the high water marks I have set the IQ levels of the four talents below.



All the following replaces my previous suggestion.



Just need to add these four "Wizards Only" magical talents. No staffs affect casting:

Without any of these talents, a Wizard can only have 1 illusion and 1 image of an animate thing (person, bear, etc. This does not apply to illusions/images of walls, fires, magical rope) at a time. But for some talent levels they gain they main cast an additional animate being illusions and images. Also note illusions and images must be recast after 12 turns. This prevents wizards from having permanent illusions/images (although they nearly are).

Talent "Glean Ambience" IQ=9 IQ cost=1. Prereq: must be a wizard (not available to fighters that can cast magic). Cost is 1 for wizards (does not have double IQ cost as it is a magical talent). Affect: reduces spell casting die roll by -1 pip per die with a minimum value of 0 per die.

Talent "Tap the Flow" IQ=11 IQ cost=2. Prereq: must be a wizard (not available to fighters that can cast magic). Cost is 2 for wizards (does not have double IQ cost as it is a magical talent). Affect: reduces spell casting die roll by -2 dice (replaces Glean Ambience -1). Additional affect allows wizard to have 2 illusions and 2 images of animate beings simultaneously.

Talent "In the Current" IQ=14 IQ cost=3. Prereq: "Tap the Flow" and must be a wizard (not available to fighters that can cast magic). Cost is 3 for wizards (does not have double IQ cost as it is a magical talent). Affect: reduces spell casting die roll by -3 dice (replaces Tap the Flow -2). Additional affect allows wizard to have 3 illusions and 3 images of animate beings simultaneously.

Talent "Nexus of Power" IQ=18 IQ cost=4. Prereq: "In the Current" and must be a wizard (not available to fighters that can cast magic). Cost is 4 for wizards (does not have double IQ cost as it is a magical talent). Affect: reduces spell casting die roll by -4 dice (replaces In the Current -3, etc). Additional affect allows wizard to have 4 illusions and 4 images of animate beings simultaneously.


Or if you want, you can have a separate magical talent for maintaining additional illusions and just remove that aspect from the above talents.