Unarmed parries while wielding a 2h weapon

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Mercutio Montecchi

Sounds like it should work, technically.
I attack with my warhammmer using 2 hands, so it doesn't become unready.
Then I let go 1 hand: I don't have enough ST to attack with a warhammer in one-hand without it becoming unready, but I don't use it to attack nor defend.
Before I attack, I re-grip it in 2 hands, and it's still ready.

One thing still bothers me... is there no bonus at all for wielding a weapon in 2 hands?
Let me explain... if I wield a Naginata with the Polearm skill in 2 hands with 18 ST, it deals sw+2 cut or thr+2 imp damage. Since I have 18 in ST, I can wield a Naginata in 1 hand and attack with it every turn without it becoming unready. So why would I ever want to wield it in 2 hands?
This seems very strange to me: how can the same weapon deal the same amount of damage if I wield it in one or 2 hands? I understand it not becoming unready, but I don't understand how it would yield no penalties on the user at all in terms of damage, parrying chance or whatever.

Oh, Two-Handed weapons enjoy some parrying benefits in the expanded rules (found in MA).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Mercutio Montecchi

One thing still bothers me... is there no bonus at all for wielding a weapon in 2 hands?
Let me explain... if I wield a Naginata with the Polearm skill in 2 hands with 18 ST, it deals sw+2 cut or thr+2 imp damage. Since I have 18 in ST, I can wield a Naginata in 1 hand and attack with it every turn without it becoming unready. So why would I ever want to wield it in 2 hands?
This seems very strange to me: how can the same weapon deal the same amount of damage if I wield it in one or 2 hands? I understand it not becoming unready, but I don't understand how it would yield no penalties on the user at all in terms of damage, parrying chance or whatever.

The naginata does 1 point less damage one-handed and it doesn't enjoy the multiple parrying bonus GURPS Martial Arts gives to two-handed weapons, i.e. that the penalty is halved from -4 to -2.

[Mercutio Montecchi]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The naginata does 1 point less damage one-handed and it doesn't enjoy the multiple parrying bonus GURPS Martial Arts gives to two-handed weapons, i.e. that the penalty is halved from -4 to -2.

I don't see how it does one less damage... in the Basic Set, only the rules for using the Naginata with 2 hands are given, either with the Staff, 2h Sword or Polearm skill. In all 3 cases, it requires 9 in ST to use, so you can use it with no penalties every turn without it becoming unready at ST 18.

As for the defense, parrying with a Naginata in one hand actually becomes a lot easier due to, for example, a shield or a cloak.

A character with 18 in ST and a Medium shield would have no benefit for using a Naginata in two hands, ever. First, he can block. Then, he can parry at +2 compared to the 2h Naginata user. Then, he can parry again at his base Naginata parry -2. His third parry is at -6.

The 2h Naginata user has 1 parry at his base Naginata parry, a second parry at his parry -2. The third parry is at -4 and the fourth parry is at -6.

So yea, if you have to defend against 4 attacks or less per turn, then the 1h Naginata is better. If you have to defend against 5 or more attacks per turn, then the 2h Naginata becomes better at the 5th and subsequent attacks. But then, you probably will be dodging and not parrying anymore. And then, guess what? The 1h Naginata user is still at an advantage because of the shield's DB bonus.

If you have enough ST to wield a 2h weapon in 1 hand, I really think there's no reason to use such a weapon with 2 hands... and frankly I don't think it makes sense.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Mercutio Montecchi

I don't see how it does one less damage... in the Basic Set, only the rules for using the Naginata with 2 hands are given, either with the Staff, 2h Sword or Polearm skill. In all 3 cases, it requires 9 in ST to use, so you can use it with no penalties every turn without it becoming unready at ST 18.

As for the defense, parrying with a Naginata in one hand actually becomes a lot easier due to, for example, a shield or a cloak.

A character with 18 in ST and a Medium shield would have no benefit for using a Naginata in two hands, ever. First, he can block. Then, he can parry at +2 compared to the 2h Naginata user. Then, he can parry again at his base Naginata parry -2. His third parry is at -6.

The 2h Naginata user has 1 parry at his base Naginata parry, a second parry at his parry -2. The third parry is at -4 and the fourth parry is at -6.

So yea, if you have to defend against 4 attacks or less per turn, then the 1h Naginata is better. If you have to defend against 5 or more attacks per turn, then the 2h Naginata becomes better at the 5th and subsequent attacks. But then, you probably will be dodging and not parrying anymore. And then, guess what? The 1h Naginata user is still at an advantage because of the shield's DB bonus.

If you have enough ST to wield a 2h weapon in 1 hand, I really think there's no reason to use such a weapon with 2 hands... and frankly I don't think it makes sense.

Martial Arts says it does 1 point less damage. If you want your weapon stats to make sense, you can't use just the Basic Set.

And you use Axe/Mace skill to swing the naginata and Spear to thrust with it, when using it one-handed.

[Mister Negative]

Originally Posted by Mercutio Montecchi

Can't actually wield the warhammer one-handed... 18 is just enough to wield it in 2 hands and attack every turn without it becoming unready.

It's not so bad with the Warhammer actually, but it gets pretty silly with weapons like the Maul, which requires ST19 to use every turn and deals the same damage as the Flail (2h), which can be used every turn without becoming unready at ST13.

The Naginata is even more absurd because it deals 2 less damage, but it's bladed and pretty cheap, so you can have it in higher quality, plus it's cutting and it can be used every turn at ST 9.
With 18 in ST you could use it in one hand every turn without it becoming unready, so basically with less ST than you need to use a Maul every turn in 2 hands, you can use a Naginata every turn in one hand and potentially deal much more damage because it's cutting.

This all sounds a bit strange...

Yes, but....

You can put Flanges on the maul to increase its damage (LTC2).

The Maul weighs 12 pounds, so has a chance of breaking any weapon of 4 pounds or less on a parry (and can parry heavier weapons as well).

While cutting damage is multiplied, there are other advantages of crushing damage (such as being more likely to knock someone down).

For many objects, attacking them with a Maul is a good way of breaking them, while attacking them with a naginata is a good way of breaking the naginata! Of course, if you're cutting ropes, fine, go with the naginata. But breaking down doors? Maul all the way (or axe, I suppose).

When using that pick, don't forget that you get to do damage again, when you pull it out! It may be harder to use as quickly as a naginata, but naginatas don't get to do damage twice!

I'm just speaking up for the poor, maligned Pick and Maul. Won't someone think of the fauchard?!?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Mercutio Montecchi

It's not so bad with the Warhammer actually, but it gets pretty silly with weapons like the Maul, which requires ST19 to use every turn and deals the same damage as the Flail (2h), which can be used every turn without becoming unready at ST13.

Also, note that some two-handed unbalanced weapons had their damage adjusted in Low-Tech.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Mercutio Montecchi

One thing still bothers me... is there no bonus at all for wielding a weapon in 2 hands?
Let me explain... if I wield a Naginata with the Polearm skill in 2 hands with 18 ST, it deals sw+2 cut or thr+2 imp damage. Since I have 18 in ST, I can wield a Naginata in 1 hand and attack with it every turn without it becoming unready. So why would I ever want to wield it in 2 hands?

Martial arts gives a -1 damage penalty to "normally twohanded weapons" when wielded in one hand. So yes, the "bonus" is you don't get penalized for using the weapon "wrong".

EDIT: Woops, should have read the rest of the thread before hitting reply. We're busy in here today apparently, but mostly not Americans. Funny.

Anyways. If you want lots of information on getting fancy with fighting, you really want Martial Arts. You may want Low Tech too, and Low Tech Companion 2, but you really want Martial Arts.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Mercutio Montecchi

That sure sounds more optimal, but I need 18 in ST to attack with a warhammer every round...

I would like to remind you that with a warhammer, as it is a swung/imp weapon, you have to take a ready action to free a pick, which means even with ST18, you have to ready your pick after hitting an opponent.

[Mercutio Montecchi]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I would like to remind you that with a warhammer, as it is a swung/imp weapon, you have to take a ready action to free a pick, which means even with ST18, you have to ready your pick after hitting an opponent.

Yea now that I read the full pick rules, that kind of sucks.
I guess the "50% damage while coming out" thing is nice because it bypasses DR and you don't have to hit to actually do the damage but meh... warhammer and pick look a lot less interesting now.
I guess I'll go with the Naginata: seems like an amazingly versatile weapon.

Right now I'm fortunate enough that my current character is alive. In case he dies, I guess I'll go with this concept for the Conan campaign I'm playing in.


Ching Go-Liu, the Flying Gorilla of Khitai (so named because he is 280 lbs x 6'3" and he used to work as an acrobat for the local feudal lord before he injured his back); 150 pts char

*** WARNING: this character is meant to be a bit silly. ***

Stats:
ST 18
DX 13
IQ 10
HT 11

Advs:
Ambidexterity
High Pain Threshold
Combat Reflexes
Fit

Perks:
Shield-Wall Training
Grip Mastery (Naginata)

Disadvs:
Bad Back (Mild)
Curious
Restricted Vision (No Peripheral) (he lives with a greathelm on his head anyway)
Honesty
Gullibility
Impulsiveness
Sense of Duty (Friends and Companions)
Stubborness

Languages:
Kithan (his own native language)
Shemitish (Spoken, accented)

Skills:
Polearm 16
Acrobatics 13
Judo 12
Climbing 12
Stealth 12
Riding 12
Fast-Draw (Knife) 13+1
Knife 14
Karate 12
Shield 16
Intimidation 10 (he used to be a bully when he was a teenager, then he calmed down)

Equipment:
Great Helm
Leather Armor
Heavy Leather Sleeves
Leather Gloves
Heavy Leather Leggins
Boots

Naginata (x2)
Large Shield
Large Knife

62 lbs (no encumbrance), 990$

I might get a quirk or something like "extremely paranoid about getting hit in the head" and have him go bitch-crazy every time anyone asks him to do anything that might get him to fall on his head, get his head hit or otherwise injured "because momma always told me that the head is a very important and delicate place, and that I need to use my head if I want to be successful in life". Of course he always did all of his acrobatics with his greathelm on.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Letting go one hand is a free action and doesn't require Grip Mastery. You could parry unarmed every turn, if desired.

This is both cool and realistic, so go for it. Of course, unarmed parries being unpenalised vs. weapons is not realistic, but if that doesn't bother you normally, there is even less reason to worry about it when it's a live hand for someone armed.

Can you do free actions on somebody else's turn though? The most natural form is "He hit with his pommel strike? I let go of my longsword with my left hand and do a Judo parry with my left hand."

I would allow someone with Grip Mastery to remove one hand from a weapon and parry with that hand. I don't think this is canonical, but I've done it reliably in practice with Two Handed Sword-8 and Judo-7.