How would you make this spell? D&D edition

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Polkageist

Oh yeah, energy reserve!
That almost trivializes energy cost for maintaining Create Mount. The wizard will fully recover the maintenance cost and then some during travel, and incidental rest along the way can make up lost FP used to help cast the spell initially.

If you want to totally trivialize maintaining spells Wild Mana is even crazier.

However, Wild Mana makes casting spells riskier than even Very High Mana. If they wizard fails, Not only do they pay full energy cost but they roll on the critical spell failure table. If the wizard rolls a critical failure it will be a spectacular disaster.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Complicating things greatly is the fact that Create Mount does not conjure you a "horse". It can look like anythign you want but it has the stats of a pany.

For a base casting yes. But, "The caster may also choose to create a Brute mount with ST 35, a Winged mount with Move 7/14, a Racing mount with Move 18, or a War-Trained mount that remains calm in dangerous situations and can be ordered to trample or attack"

The only problem with those options is Brute, Winged, War-Trained, and Racing are at double energy cost.

Based on the way the spell is described (" Triple the cost for a Winged Racing mount, etc.") combining those further increases the multiplier ie if you want a Brute, Winged and War-Trained mount be prepared to pay 4x base cost.

Unless mages have huge energy reserves, the setting is Wild Mana, or there are Power 9 Paut Talismans in abundance the options are generally going to be limited to the pony version.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Complicating things greatly is the fact that Create Mount does not conjure you a "horse". It can look like anythign you want but it has the stats of a pany.

The importance differences between a pony and a horse are ST 18 (BL65lbs) at Move 14 v. ST21(BL88lbs) w/Move 12. At many reasonable encumbrance totals the horse is goign to be one category more lightly Encumbered and will be faster than the pony (usually by 1).

The table looks like this:

ST 18 ST 21
None 65lbs 88lbs
Light 135lbs 176 lbs
Medium 200lbs 264 lbs
Heavy 265 lbs 352 lbs

I'm getting visions of a fantasy pony express where all the riders are halflings.

Let me first note your Heavy Encumbrance values are incorrect - Heavy is up to 6xBL (it breaks from the No-Light-Med pattern), for 390 lb vs 528 lb. Running the math*, assuming the conjured pony has to stick to the reduced speed caused by its encumbrance**, when both are at No Encumbrance (below 65 lb), the horse travels further (technically, I think the pony would overtake the horse at somewhere around the 17 hour mark, but that's excessive for a day of travel - the mage has to sleep sometime!). When both are at Light Encumbrance (between 88 and 135 lb), the pony overtakes the horse at the 4 hour mark - although the horse gets the lead again at the 5 hour mark (it gets to hike for the whole hour), but loses it again at the 6 hour mark and never regains it. When both are at Medium encumbrance (between 176 and 200 lb), the pony overtakes the horse at the 3 hour mark, and keeps the lead thereafter. When both are at Heavy encumbrance (between 264 and 390 lb), the pony overtakes the horse at the 2 hour mark, and keeps the lead thereafter. When at different encumbrance levels (so between 65 and 88 lb, 135 and 176 lb, or 200 and 264 lb), the pony never has the lead. Rider+gear+supplies probably tends to hover in the 175-250 range for mages (150 lb rider, between 25 and 100 lb of gear+supplies), so it would depend on where in that range you sit as to which will get you to your destination faster... although if you get to 264 lb or more, then as long as you stay below 390, the pony is faster.

Note even a bit of Energy Reserve can change things markedly. With ER 1, the pony overtakes the horse at the 4 hour mark when both have No Encumbrance (3 hours for Light, 2 for Medium and Heavy), but never for higher encumbrance. With ER 2, this is instead at 3 hours for No Encumbrance (2 for Light/Medium/Heavy), and for long journeys some cases of difference encumbrance see the pony as victor (for Medium vs Light, pony wins at 8 hours, horse retakes the lead at 9 hours, and pony leads from 10 hours on; for Heavy vs Medium, these instead happen at 9, 10, and 11 hours, respectively). With ER 3 (negating maintenance cost), at equal encumbrance the pony always overtakes the horse the second hour. For Light vs No Encumbrance, the pony overtakes at hour 5 and keeps the lead. For Medium vs Light, this instead happens at hour 3. For Heavy vs Medium, pony takes the lead at hour 3, horse retakes it at hour 4, and pony leads from hour 5 on. Higher ER shifts things around a bit, but at ER 6, pony always leads at equal encumbrance and generally takes the lead at hour 3 at different encumbrance (although it just barely gets ahead - by 0.05 miles - at hour 2 for Medium vs Light). At 7 ER (and higher), pony always leads from hour 2 on at different encumbrance.

*I'm assuming the mage has Create Mount at 15+ (for cost 7/3) and Recover Energy at 15+ (for 5 minutes rest per FP) and no Energy Reserve, while the horse lacks any fitness-related Advantages/Disadvantages (for hourly FP costs while hiking, and 10 minutes rest per FP). The conjured pony waits for 35 minutes after being conjured (for the mage to recover FP), travels for 25 minutes, then waits for 15 minutes (for the mage to recover the FP used to maintain the spell), travels for 45 minutes, and repeats this, traveling 45 minutes out of every hour. The horse, meanwhile, travels for the entire first hour, rests until it fully recovers its FP (10 minutes at No Encumbrance, 20 at Light, 30 at Medium, and 40 at Heavy), travels for a full hour, rests until it fully recovers FP, and so forth. Time for meals, comfort stops, etc is ignored (or, rather, assumed to be included in the rest periods), as is the time to initially cast the spell. Note there are undoubtedly cases where one or the other could reach a given destination first by simply not stopping to rest every time there's an FP charge, but I'm looking for sustained rates, here. I'm also assuming the mounts must travel at hiking speed for the rider to not be charged FP (but such riding doesn't count as rest); if they can jog (double hiking speed), or even sprint (quadruple hiking speed), without the rider losing FP, the tireless pony would absolutely crush the horse over most distances.

**Given the pony normally has a hiking speed of 7 mph, it should be just as comfortable for the rider to be on it at 5 mph regardless of if the pony were unencumbered or was under Heavy Encumbrance. A real pony would tire out extremely quickly keeping that up, but our tireless conjured pony wouldn't. We'll ignore that for this analysis.

Originally Posted by maximara

Unless mages have huge energy reserves, the setting is Wild Mana, or there are Power 9 Paut Talismans in abundance the options are generally going to be limited to the pony version.

A single modifier would probably be doable for most adventuring mages. I assume the cost for, say, a Brute (or Racing, or Flying) mount would be 14/7. The initial cost would burn up the bulk of the mage's FP, and the mage would only be able to travel for 15 minutes out of the first two hours (105 minutes of rest to cover the initial 14 and the first hourly maintenance charge, which would happen during the rest) and then travel for only 25 minutes every hour thereafter. This generally isn't great for travel, however. Between 200 lb (Heavy Encumbrance for the Pony, No Encumbrance for the Brute) and 245 lb (Light Encumbrance for the Brute), the Brute will cover more ground than the pony starting at the 5 hour mark. I didn't work out Extra Heavy Encumbrance for the Pony vs Horse comparison (I think most horses will basically refuse to move under such a load), but looking at it now the Brute blows both of them out of the water when weights get that high - at Pony's upper limit for Extra Heavy (650 lb), the Brute is only at Medium, and passes Pony at hour 3; at Horse's upper limit for Extra Heavy (880 lb), the Brute is at Heavy, and passes the Horse at hour 5. For a good deal of those spans, the Brute is at Light against the Pony (from 390 to 490 lb) and Medium against the Horse (from 528 to 735 lb). So, if you need to carry a lot of weight, the Brute is a good option.

ER again shifts things. ER 2 makes it possible (barely, at 12 hours, the furthest I worked out to) for the Brute to overtake the Pony when the latter is at Medium Encumbrance. ER 6 makes the Brute overtake the Pony at 5 hours when the latter is at Light Encumbrance. And, of course, as ER increases (up to 14, at which point the two are equal in speed at No Encumbrance), the time to overtake goes down markedly, and thus the lead seen by the Brute for longer journeys goes up. For example, between 200 lb and 245 lb (No Encumbrance for Brute, Heavy Encumbrance for Pony), just having ER 1 lets the Brute overtake at hour 3 (instead of hour 5 with ER 0), and by hour 12 the Brute will have traveled around 38 miles (instead of around 31 with ER 0), compared to the Pony's 27.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Varyon

A single modifier would probably be doable for most adventuring mages. I assume the cost for, say, a Brute (or Racing, or Flying) mount would be 14/7. The initial cost would burn up the bulk of the mage's FP, and the mage would only be able to travel for 15 minutes out of the first two hours (105 minutes of rest to cover the initial 14 and the first hourly maintenance charge, which would happen during the rest) and then travel for only 25 minutes every hour thereafter.

Several things.

First, the skill adjustment is applied after you use the multiplier. Ie since the base for Create Mount is 8/3, casting a Brute (or Racing, or Flying) mount at effective skill 15 would be 15/5 (8x2-1/3x2-1) not 14/7.

Second, per Basic p 426 the mage would have to have 15 energy to not to take HP damage and HP damage is going to take far longer to recover from.

Third, as you see from the numbers without Recover Energy or some other aid the mage will never break even.

As a side note, extrapolating the numbers a Winged, Brute, War-trained mount would have a base 32/12 (8x4/3x4) so if the mage's mount turns out to be one of those you better run...fast. :-)

Four, the average mage is likely going to have HT 10 and perhaps some extra FP/ER but unless every mage that learns this spell has built up some sort of a reserve they likely aren't going, on their own, have the 15 energy to use up front.

This is why I stated "Unless mages have huge energy reserves, the setting is Wild Mana, or there are Power 9 Paut Talismans in abundance the options are generally going to be limited to the pony version."

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by maximara

Several things.

First, the skill adjustment is applied after you use the multiplier. Ie since the base for Create Mount is 8/3, casting a Brute (or Racing, or Flying) mount at effective skill 15 would be 15/5 (8x2-1/3x2-1) not 14/7.

Ah, I generally don't mess too much with Basic Magic, so I wasn't sure how things worked in that regard (honestly, I was working under the assumption the Maintain cost was "half cost to cast, round down," hence assuming it was 7). The reason I said "adventuring mage" was that I expect your typical adventuring mage would have enough FP+ER to manage the initial casting without losing HP. I would also expect your typical adventuring mage to have Recover Energy at high enough level to reduce the time to recover energy to 5 minutes per FP, hence using that value in all my calculations (as you later note, without Recover Energy the mage can't really recover energy fast enough to do anything with the mount - there is a breakeven point, but I think it's nearly 8 hours after initially casting).

Originally Posted by maximara

This is why I stated "Unless mages have huge energy reserves, the setting is Wild Mana, or there are Power 9 Paut Talismans in abundance the options are generally going to be limited to the pony version."

It's entirely doable even for a mage with FP 10, so long as he or she also has ER 5 - which I wouldn't consider a "huge energy reserve" (it only costs as much as Combat Reflexes). The character would have to rest for 50 minutes (assuming Recover Energy; failing that, it would be a 100 minute rest) after casting, but after that the character would be able to use the mount freely, only needing the occasional meal/comfort break.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I would also expect your typical adventuring mage to have Recover Energy at high enough level to reduce the time to recover energy to 5 minutes per FP, hence using that value in all my calculations (as you later note, without Recover Energy the mage can't really recover energy fast enough to do anything with the mount - there is a breakeven point, but I think it's nearly 8 hours after initially casting).

IMHO any adventuring mage worth the name will have Recover Energy — 20 which will give them 1 FP every 2 minutes.

Barring Recover Energy or Regeneration (FP) a mage with Create Mount — 15 will, for a Brute/Racing/Flying/war-trained mount, spend 15 energy up front (down 15 energy) and spend 5 to maintain each hour for a net gain of 1 FP every hour. At that rate the mage will not break even until 15 continuous hours have passed.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

IMHO any adventuring mage worth the name will have Recover Energy — 20 which will give them 1 FP every 2 minutes.

Barring Recover Energy or Regeneration (FP) a mage with Create Mount — 15 will, for a Brute/Racing/Flying/war-trained mount, spend 15 energy up front (down 15 energy) and spend 5 to maintain each hour for a net gain of 1 FP every hour.

Any working mage will want Recover Energy. Only the most academic sort of mages who study spells but seldom cast them would not benefit from Recover Energy.

The thing about that mage who cast and then maintained Create Mount but rested to regain his FP is that he can't be the one riding that mount. Riding a horse is not restful enough. I wouldn't let you drive a car and claim to be resting. Ride ina car yes but nto drive it.

If somebody else is riding the mount ad the mage is doing nothing but resting and maintaining then that's where there can be a long-term Mount. Buying a real horse will eventually be cheaper.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Any working mage will want Recover Energy. Only the most academic sort of mages who study spells but seldom cast them would not benefit from Recover Energy.

The thing about that mage who cast and then maintained Create Mount but rested to regain his FP is that he can't be the one riding that mount. Riding a horse is not restful enough. I wouldn't let you drive a car and claim to be resting. Ride ina car yes but nto drive it.

If somebody else is riding the mount ad the mage is doing nothing but resting and maintaining then that's where there can be a long-term Mount. Buying a real horse will eventually be cheaper.

This all depends on your view of how restful riding the mount is. "Horseback riding is an inherently relaxing activity due to the natural rhythm of the horse's trot." Remember the spell stats "The mount’s traits are equivalent to a pony." So you could, in theory, move things around so as to have a restful ride.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

This all depends on your view of how restful riding the mount is. e.

As I said I wouldn't let you claim to be resting while driving a car it is obvious I do not believe it's all that restful.

B. 427 lists "sitting, talking and thinking" as permissable but forbids anything more strenuous (including walking). Recover Energy may be even more limited as it says tha the mage must "rest quietly".

FP Regeneration would be different. Regeneration is not conditionally limited.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

As I said I wouldn't let you claim to be resting while driving a car it is obvious I do not believe it's all that restful.

B. 427 lists "sitting, talking and thinking" as permissable but forbids anything more strenuous (including walking). Recover Energy may be even more limited as it says tha the mage must "rest quietly".

FP Regeneration would be different. Regeneration is not conditionally limited.

Originally Posted by Kromm

(Fit and Unfit material snipped)

Also important is Recovering Energy (Spells, p. 10):

You recover lost Fatigue Points by resting; see Recovering from Fatigue (Exploits, pp. 64-65). The Recover Energy spell (p. 38) can accelerate this.

Your Energy Reserve regenerates at one point per 10 minutes, resting or not. Recover Energy can accelerate this, too, but only if it and the Energy Reserve belong to the same realm; e.g., wizardly Recover Energy for Energy Reserve (Magical).

Note in particular how this is a parallel process to FP recovery and doesn't interact at all with fitness level or Breath Control.

That "Your Energy Reserve regenerates at one point per 10 minutes, resting or not." is key as it shows an important difference between normal Fatigue and Energy Reserve Fatigue. Energy Reserve Fatigue will regenerate even if you are not resting!