Spead-reading for learning spells

Nikich · 11-15-2021, 07:52 AM

Hey guys, i was wondering, if mage buys a spell book, and wants to learn a spell from it, would Spead-reading skill decrease the time that needed for it? Have someone seen it described somewhere?

P.S. The idea has come after i've read about Book-leraned wisdom, because speed-reading actually decreases the time needed for filling a slot.

Varyon · 11-15-2021, 08:26 AM

I don't think I have it (at work, so no Warehouse23 access to check), but I'd imagine the answer would be in GURPS Social Engineering: Back to School. Specifically, if Speed-Reading allows you to learn skills faster through self-study (possibly even through other forms, if such learning would call for a lot of reading), it would work for learning spells from spellbooks/grimoires (which is basically a type of self-study). GURPS Locations: Worminghall may have information more specific to the learning of spells, given it's a school for teaching magic, but I know I don't have that. Both have the same writer, Bill Stoddard (who you can find on the forums as whswhs).

WingedKagouti · 11-15-2021, 08:29 AM

Magic p6 under Finding a Teacher implies that studying a spell isn't just about reading the text, but also spending time unravelling what it means and how to use that knowledge. By default you need to spend 200 hours studying per point if you have a skilled teacher (modified by Magery to a minimum of 120 hours/point), double the time if you don't have a skilled teacher.

There are obviously settings where all you need to do to learn a spell is to memorize the words needed to cast the spell. In such a setting Speed-Reading could of course cut down on the time spent, but then you have the Speed-Reading skill roll requirement to recall the words when you want to cast the spell.

malloyd · 11-15-2021, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikich

Hey guys, i was wondering, if mage buys a spell book, and wants to learn a spell from it, would Spead-reading skill decrease the time that needed for it? Have someone seen it described somewhere?

P.S. The idea has come after i've read about Book-leraned wisdom, because speed-reading actually decreases the time needed for filling a slot.

RAW no, Speed Reading has no effect on learning rates for anything. This is approximately realistic, as most studies of speed reading programs that are at all reliable show fairly small average effects on retained comprehension.

Mechanistically, if you have the points to buy a new spell and the GM is imposing some sort of learning time limitation, then it's his call how he wants his house rule to work. The rules let you spend your points instantly (p.B290), though contradicts that two pages later with respect to skills, which are written so you could never spend points on skills with no defaults, hence the justification for writing rules to let you spend your earned points on spells with some study time requirements, as full time adventuring mages could otherwise never learn new spells.

If you don't have the points and want Speed Reading to shorten the hundreds of hours of study it takes to earn one, I'd recommend against it. That rule is itself is often problematic, and changing point acquisition rates is automatically unbalanced and will only make it worse.

Stormcrow · 11-15-2021, 08:38 AM

This would be a GM call. The rules don't specify how much or what kind of reading is involved in learning spells, so they don't really tell whether Speed-Reading would be useful.

Personally, I would assume that grimoires and other texts would have a lot of charts and lists, and a lot of self-training would be practicing chants and gestures and learning how they fit together and manipulate mana, things that Speed-Reading wouldn't really be useful for.

whswhs · 11-15-2021, 08:50 AM

The way that I envision learning spells in Worminghall is that there are two phases. First, you spend eight hours going over and over the spell until you have memorized it perfectly. At that point, you are familiar with it, and can cast it at IQ+Magery-6 (you've gained a default). Then you spend the remaining 192 hours practicing it, learning the proper stance, gestures, intonation, visualizations, and so on. At the end, you have it at IQ+Magery-2 (you have 1 point in the spell).

If you have Symbol Drawing, you can spend a second drawing diagrams on a wax tablet, or in the sand (at -2), or in the air (at -5), as an aid to getting the spell right; you get +1 to the spell for each 2 points by which the roll succeeded. You can take extra time to get bonuses to Symbol Drawing, up to +5 for spending half a minute (whereas you can't take extra time on the spell itself). In Worminghall, young student mages learn Symbol Drawing as they learn their first spells, because it has a huge payoff.

Now, the rules tell us that a spell can be cast in 1 second, so the verbal part of the spell can't be very long; I can't see that Speed Reading would help with reading something that short. I don't think it would be any help with the 192 hours of study to gain the actual skill, either. It's not inconceivable that it could help with gaining Symbol Drawing skill; on the other hand, in Back to School I didn't provide any learning speed bonuses for Speed Reading. I'm not sure I'd want to change that, because I think that, for example, if I were studying geometry or music theory or physics, it wouldn't be a question of how fast I could read the text, but of how fully I thought through the content of the text.

Speed Reading is more for emergency situations: You have to read the instructions for a parachute after you've been thrown out of the aircraft. I suppose I might let you use it to read quickly through a grimoire to find the specific spell you need for your current problem; or MAYBE I'd let you read a spell, and then roll vs. IQ to remember it well enough to cast it at default, once.

But if it's your campaign, you can adopt a different interpretation. How do you think magic works, and how do you think people learn spells?

Nikich · 11-15-2021, 08:59 AM

Yes, i agree. The more i think about it, the more problematic it is. Also it's hard to count a right amount of time you have to read a spell book. Thanks for your replies.

Nikich · 11-15-2021, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs

The way that I envision learning spells in Worminghall is that there are two phases. First, you spend eight hours going over and over the spell until you have memorized it perfectly. At that point, you are familiar with it, and can cast it at IQ+Magery-6 (you've gained a default). Then you spend the remaining 192 hours practicing it, learning the proper stance, gestures, intonation, visualizations, and so on. At the end, you have it at IQ+Magery-2 (you have 1 point in the spell).

If you have Symbol Drawing, you can spend a second drawing diagrams on a wax tablet, or in the sand (at -2), or in the air (at -5), as an aid to getting the spell right; you get +1 to the spell for each 2 points by which the roll succeeded. You can take extra time to get bonuses to Symbol Drawing, up to +5 for spending half a minute (whereas you can't take extra time on the spell itself). In Worminghall, young student mages learn Symbol Drawing as they learn their first spells, because it has a huge payoff.

Now, the rules tell us that a spell can be cast in 1 second, so the verbal part of the spell can't be very long; I can't see that Speed Reading would help with reading something that short. I don't think it would be any help with the 192 hours of study to gain the actual skill, either. It's not inconceivable that it could help with gaining Symbol Drawing skill; on the other hand, in Back to School I didn't provide any learning speed bonuses for Speed Reading. I'm not sure I'd want to change that, because I think that, for example, if I were studying geometry or music theory or physics, it wouldn't be a question of how fast I could read the text, but of how fully I thought through the content of the text.

Speed Reading is more for emergency situations: You have to read the instructions for a parachute after you've been thrown out of the aircraft. I suppose I might let you use it to read quickly through a grimoire to find the specific spell you need for your current problem; or MAYBE I'd let you read a spell, and then roll vs. IQ to remember it well enough to cast it at default, once.

But if it's your campaign, you can adopt a different interpretation. How do you think magic works, and how do you think people learn spells?

I like your interpritation, i think it's good for me. Thank you.

Fred Brackin · 11-15-2021, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

This would be a GM call. Tr.

The above of course is an absolute truth but a look under the hood might be informative.

Going to DF4 it is quite plain that these memoriation slots are a specific form of Modular Abilities and the need to fill slots is a fundamental Limitation on use of the Modular Ability. The important thing there is how many cp you've spent on slots and what quality source material you're using. Speed Reading is pretty peripheral to this and modifying things for Speed Reading is mostly fluff.

Magic (the default system from Basic and the book of the same name) is not a Power and is generally a thing unto itself. The important thing with cp and Magic is spending the cp to learn the skill-like Spells. Reading time isn't even mentioned and indeed illiterate mages can learn Spells directly from a teacher. You have to have a source for the Spell you're trying to learn but what you realy have to have is the cp to spend or the 200 hours to trade for the effect of a cp. If you have the cp there isn't even the vaguest guidance about how long after you acquire the source you are able to spend that cp.

So reading time just isn't part of default Magic and Speed Reading Skill doesn't modify things in my judgment.

11-15-2021, 07:52 AM	#1
Nikich Join Date: Sep 2021	Spead-reading for learning spells Hey guys, i was wondering, if mage buys a spell book, and wants to learn a spell from it, would Spead-reading skill decrease the time that needed for it? Have someone seen it described somewhere? P.S. The idea has come after i've read about Book-leraned wisdom, because speed-reading actually decreases the time needed for filling a slot.

11-15-2021, 08:26 AM	#2
Varyon Join Date: Jun 2013	Re: Spead-reading for learning spells I don't think I have it (at work, so no Warehouse23 access to check), but I'd imagine the answer would be in GURPS Social Engineering: Back to School. Specifically, if Speed-Reading allows you to learn skills faster through self-study (possibly even through other forms, if such learning would call for a lot of reading), it would work for learning spells from spellbooks/grimoires (which is basically a type of self-study). GURPS Locations: Worminghall may have information more specific to the learning of spells, given it's a school for teaching magic, but I know I don't have that. Both have the same writer, Bill Stoddard (who you can find on the forums as whswhs). __________________ GURPS Overhaul

11-15-2021, 08:29 AM	#3
WingedKagouti Join Date: Oct 2007	Re: Spead-reading for learning spells Magic p6 under Finding a Teacher implies that studying a spell isn't just about reading the text, but also spending time unravelling what it means and how to use that knowledge. By default you need to spend 200 hours studying per point if you have a skilled teacher (modified by Magery to a minimum of 120 hours/point), double the time if you don't have a skilled teacher. There are obviously settings where all you need to do to learn a spell is to memorize the words needed to cast the spell. In such a setting Speed-Reading could of course cut down on the time spent, but then you have the Speed-Reading skill roll requirement to recall the words when you want to cast the spell.

11-15-2021, 08:38 AM	#5
Stormcrow Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ronkonkoma, NY	Re: Spead-reading for learning spells This would be a GM call. The rules don't specify how much or what kind of reading is involved in learning spells, so they don't really tell whether Speed-Reading would be useful. Personally, I would assume that grimoires and other texts would have a lot of charts and lists, and a lot of self-training would be practicing chants and gestures and learning how they fit together and manipulate mana, things that Speed-Reading wouldn't really be useful for.

11-15-2021, 08:50 AM	#6
whswhs Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS	Re: Spead-reading for learning spells The way that I envision learning spells in Worminghall is that there are two phases. First, you spend eight hours going over and over the spell until you have memorized it perfectly. At that point, you are familiar with it, and can cast it at IQ+Magery-6 (you've gained a default). Then you spend the remaining 192 hours practicing it, learning the proper stance, gestures, intonation, visualizations, and so on. At the end, you have it at IQ+Magery-2 (you have 1 point in the spell). If you have Symbol Drawing, you can spend a second drawing diagrams on a wax tablet, or in the sand (at -2), or in the air (at -5), as an aid to getting the spell right; you get +1 to the spell for each 2 points by which the roll succeeded. You can take extra time to get bonuses to Symbol Drawing, up to +5 for spending half a minute (whereas you can't take extra time on the spell itself). In Worminghall, young student mages learn Symbol Drawing as they learn their first spells, because it has a huge payoff. Now, the rules tell us that a spell can be cast in 1 second, so the verbal part of the spell can't be very long; I can't see that Speed Reading would help with reading something that short. I don't think it would be any help with the 192 hours of study to gain the actual skill, either. It's not inconceivable that it could help with gaining Symbol Drawing skill; on the other hand, in Back to School I didn't provide any learning speed bonuses for Speed Reading. I'm not sure I'd want to change that, because I think that, for example, if I were studying geometry or music theory or physics, it wouldn't be a question of how fast I could read the text, but of how fully I thought through the content of the text. Speed Reading is more for emergency situations: You have to read the instructions for a parachute after you've been thrown out of the aircraft. I suppose I might let you use it to read quickly through a grimoire to find the specific spell you need for your current problem; or MAYBE I'd let you read a spell, and then roll vs. IQ to remember it well enough to cast it at default, once. But if it's your campaign, you can adopt a different interpretation. How do you think magic works, and how do you think people learn spells? __________________ Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more.

11-15-2021, 08:59 AM	#7
Nikich Join Date: Sep 2021	Re: Spead-reading for learning spells Yes, i agree. The more i think about it, the more problematic it is. Also it's hard to count a right amount of time you have to read a spell book. Thanks for your replies.