Extra Questions for Extra Hands/Arms

Johnny Angel · 08-25-2016, 10:28 PM

There are rules covering how much ST is necessary to effectively use a weapon with less hands. This is covered on page 270 of Basic Set: Characters. With enough strength, a character can use a weapon which normally requires two hands with one hand.

Does choosing to use an extra hand when it's not normally necessary have an in-game effect?

At first glance, this appears to be covered in Martial Arts (MA110-111) under the entry for Defensive Grip. The basic idea seems to be that doing so adds more damage, but skill use becomes more awkward. That doesn't entirely cover what I am attempting to figure out though.

Can a character choose to use an extra hand to make wielding a weapon require less ST?

For sake of example, let's say that a character with ST 9 wants to use a broadsword which lists 10 as the minimum ST required. Normally, this would give the character -1 to skill and also add extra FP cost to a battle. Would choosing to use a second hand allow the character to use the weapon easier? It appears to make sense that using more arms to lift something would make it easier, but being able to pick something up and being able to use it effectively aren't the same thing.

Also, does being able to use extra hands/arms with a weapon matter?

In particular, I've been looking at the Coleopteran in Dungeon Fantasy. They have four arms. What effect (if any) would there be for being able to use a weapon with more than two hands?

To give some context, let's say that a Coleopteran Ninja is looking to purchase a katana, and is exploring options.

Would being able to grip a katana with three hands increase damage? (My gut feeling after more thought is to say 'possibly, but effectively moving the weapon around might be awkward.')

Would extra hands make using a larger weapon possible? To keep with the same example, let's assume a SM+1 katana.

McAllister · 08-26-2016, 12:25 AM

First, I'd like to say this whole thing is a mess, and there should absolutely be something clearer on the effect of adding a hand to a weapon that doesn't need it than the mention in Defensive Grip.

Second, look at longswords. The same $700, 4lb longsword is listed in Low-Tech under Broadsword (sw+1 cut, thr+2 imp, ST 10) and under Two-Handed Sword (sw+1 cut, thr+3 imp, ST 9).

Or the bastard sword, which goes from sw+1 cut, thr+1 imp and ST 11 to sw+2 cut, thr+2 imp and ST 10.

So, from this, I can see that adding a hand to a weapon reduces its ST value by 1 and adds +1 to damage, probably. Ugh. Why does adding a hand reduce the weapon's ST value rather than changing the effective ST you wield it at? Why doesn't it give the longsword +1 swing damage? Like I said, a mess.

I'd say your best bet for wielding a katana three-handed is to take the katana stats in Low-Tech, give them the "add-a-hand" treatment so it looks like sw+3 cut, thr+1 imp, ST 8, and then upsize it. SM+1 will have sw+5 cut, thr+2 imp and ST 12, which is actually a damn nice weapon for the investment of three limbs. It'll cost a bunch, but what's money good for? Hell, I might go up to SM+2: sw+8 cut, thr +3 imp, and ST 20. You've got 20 strength, right? Maybe a few applications of the Huge Weapons perk to close the gap? Well, it's something to shoot for, anyway.

Gef · 08-26-2016, 01:40 AM

I would simplify the answer by invoking a different rule:

Buy Arm ST as an Alternate Ability to the Extra Arms.

Say 2 extra arms, cost 10 each. For the first, Arm ST +1 for 3 arms is a 2pt alternate. For the second, Arm ST +1 for 2 arms is a 1pt alternate.

So now, I can use a two-handed weapon with 3 hands at +1 ST, or with 4 hands at +2 ST, for net cost 3 points more than Extra Arms would cost. In this case, the fact that I've technically still got the extra arms and that I'm just using them to augment the ST of my other arms is a special effect, and one of the consequences is that I have to pay a liittle extra for weapon grips that fit all my hands.

McAllister · 08-26-2016, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gef

I would simplify the answer by invoking a different rule:

Buy Arm ST as an Alternate Ability to the Extra Arms.

Say 2 extra arms, cost 10 each. For the first, Arm ST +1 for 3 arms is a 2pt alternate. For the second, Arm ST +1 for 2 arms is a 1pt alternate.

So now, I can use a two-handed weapon with 3 hands at +1 ST, or with 4 hands at +2 ST, for net cost 3 points more than Extra Arms would cost. In this case, the fact that I've technically still got the extra arms and that I'm just using them to augment the ST of my other arms is a special effect, and one of the consequences is that I have to pay a liittle extra for weapon grips that fit all my hands.

This is bloody elegant.

Johnny Angel · 08-26-2016, 05:11 AM

Good responses, and certainly food for thought.

I'm away from books at the moment, but I believe there are perks for adding +1 to ST or +1 to size modifier for the sole purpose of wielding a weapon.

Those perks are always "on."

So, it seems somewhat reasonable to allow doubling the amount of hands used to temporarily mimic those perks given the specific circumstance of having more limbs.

Using two-hands for a normally one-handed weapon to be treated as having +1 ST only for the purpose of using the weapon (not damage.)

A weapon which is already two-handed would then require four hands to wield as though you had +1 ST.

Maybe, for the sake of game balance and niche protection of other options, I'd say you either get the +1 for picking up the weapon or avoid the extra FP cost, but not both.

Hmmm... I need to ponder it more.

@McAllister - I had noticed the sword pattern.

@Gel - In some ways that makes sense. Though, there's a perk which grants +1 to ST to all hands for one point.

I'm thinking that the middle ground between a 1 point perk and being completely free is a 0 point cost, but one which only works under specific circumstances. In this case, the specific circumstance would be using an extra hand.

Also, as you said, it would take extra cash to custom make handles for weapons.

08-25-2016, 10:28 PM	#1
Johnny Angel MIB Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Pennsylvania	Extra Questions for Extra Hands/Arms There are rules covering how much ST is necessary to effectively use a weapon with less hands. This is covered on page 270 of Basic Set: Characters. With enough strength, a character can use a weapon which normally requires two hands with one hand. Does choosing to use an extra hand when it's not normally necessary have an in-game effect? At first glance, this appears to be covered in Martial Arts (MA110-111) under the entry for Defensive Grip. The basic idea seems to be that doing so adds more damage, but skill use becomes more awkward. That doesn't entirely cover what I am attempting to figure out though. Can a character choose to use an extra hand to make wielding a weapon require less ST? For sake of example, let's say that a character with ST 9 wants to use a broadsword which lists 10 as the minimum ST required. Normally, this would give the character -1 to skill and also add extra FP cost to a battle. Would choosing to use a second hand allow the character to use the weapon easier? It appears to make sense that using more arms to lift something would make it easier, but being able to pick something up and being able to use it effectively aren't the same thing. Also, does being able to use extra hands/arms with a weapon matter? In particular, I've been looking at the Coleopteran in Dungeon Fantasy. They have four arms. What effect (if any) would there be for being able to use a weapon with more than two hands? To give some context, let's say that a Coleopteran Ninja is looking to purchase a katana, and is exploring options. Would being able to grip a katana with three hands increase damage? (My gut feeling after more thought is to say 'possibly, but effectively moving the weapon around might be awkward.') Would extra hands make using a larger weapon possible? To keep with the same example, let's assume a SM+1 katana.

08-26-2016, 12:25 AM	#2
McAllister Join Date: Jun 2013	Re: Extra Questions for Extra Hands/Arms First, I'd like to say this whole thing is a mess, and there should absolutely be something clearer on the effect of adding a hand to a weapon that doesn't need it than the mention in Defensive Grip. Second, look at longswords. The same $700, 4lb longsword is listed in Low-Tech under Broadsword (sw+1 cut, thr+2 imp, ST 10) and under Two-Handed Sword (sw+1 cut, thr+3 imp, ST 9). Or the bastard sword, which goes from sw+1 cut, thr+1 imp and ST 11 to sw+2 cut, thr+2 imp and ST 10. So, from this, I can see that adding a hand to a weapon reduces its ST value by 1 and adds +1 to damage, probably. Ugh. Why does adding a hand reduce the weapon's ST value rather than changing the effective ST you wield it at? Why doesn't it give the longsword +1 swing damage? Like I said, a mess. I'd say your best bet for wielding a katana three-handed is to take the katana stats in Low-Tech, give them the "add-a-hand" treatment so it looks like sw+3 cut, thr+1 imp, ST 8, and then upsize it. SM+1 will have sw+5 cut, thr+2 imp and ST 12, which is actually a damn nice weapon for the investment of three limbs. It'll cost a bunch, but what's money good for? Hell, I might go up to SM+2: sw+8 cut, thr +3 imp, and ST 20. You've got 20 strength, right? Maybe a few applications of the Huge Weapons perk to close the gap? Well, it's something to shoot for, anyway.

08-26-2016, 01:40 AM	#3
Gef Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Yucca Valley, CA	Re: Extra Questions for Extra Hands/Arms I would simplify the answer by invoking a different rule: Buy Arm ST as an Alternate Ability to the Extra Arms. Say 2 extra arms, cost 10 each. For the first, Arm ST +1 for 3 arms is a 2pt alternate. For the second, Arm ST +1 for 2 arms is a 1pt alternate. So now, I can use a two-handed weapon with 3 hands at +1 ST, or with 4 hands at +2 ST, for net cost 3 points more than Extra Arms would cost. In this case, the fact that I've technically still got the extra arms and that I'm just using them to augment the ST of my other arms is a special effect, and one of the consequences is that I have to pay a liittle extra for weapon grips that fit all my hands.

08-26-2016, 05:11 AM	#5
Johnny Angel MIB Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Pennsylvania	Re: Extra Questions for Extra Hands/Arms Good responses, and certainly food for thought. I'm away from books at the moment, but I believe there are perks for adding +1 to ST or +1 to size modifier for the sole purpose of wielding a weapon. Those perks are always "on." So, it seems somewhat reasonable to allow doubling the amount of hands used to temporarily mimic those perks given the specific circumstance of having more limbs. Using two-hands for a normally one-handed weapon to be treated as having +1 ST only for the purpose of using the weapon (not damage.) A weapon which is already two-handed would then require four hands to wield as though you had +1 ST. Maybe, for the sake of game balance and niche protection of other options, I'd say you either get the +1 for picking up the weapon or avoid the extra FP cost, but not both. Hmmm... I need to ponder it more. @McAllister - I had noticed the sword pattern. @Gel - In some ways that makes sense. Though, there's a perk which grants +1 to ST to all hands for one point. I'm thinking that the middle ground between a 1 point perk and being completely free is a 0 point cost, but one which only works under specific circumstances. In this case, the specific circumstance would be using an extra hand. Also, as you said, it would take extra cash to custom make handles for weapons.