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Old 01-16-2012, 10:32 PM   #21
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
Got read MA. p47 Striker (Limb)
Oh . . . interesting. I had not read the Limb limitation before, outside the context of shin kicks. That might work. You'd take Striker (Limb, Arm) instead of Talons or Long Talons to get the ability to treat your arms as a weapon. That seems like a long way around the barn to do it, though. The difference between it a Claws cost with a Perk might not be that much, depending on the build.
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Old 01-17-2012, 06:00 AM   #22
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I thought you had house ruled this to half damage or something?
I did. But guys are doing 2d+8, 3d+7, etc. Half of 17 damage isn't peanuts.
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Old 01-17-2012, 07:55 AM   #23
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

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Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog View Post
I did. But guys are doing 2d+8, 3d+7, etc. Half of 17 damage isn't peanuts.
I do the same thing (1/2 damage on parries) but still found my ravenous goblin zombies to be pretty useless. I guess I could have given them mouth "Strikers" in place of fangs, but it feels a little weird.
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:05 AM   #24
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

I'm of two minds on the issue. On the one hand, it can be sad/frustrating as a GM to watch your unarmed monsters get blenderized. On the other hand, it's totally awesome to cut off incoming tentacles and zombie arms and so forth.

I do use the half-damage on parries houserule; I also give out the -4 to the skill roll to turn a parry into a damaging attack to my monsters rather freely as well. They may not be using Karate, but they have a perk or something that lets them use that feature. *shrug* (if you can't tell, I'm of the "whatever" school when it comes to monsters).

Plain old animals and other "clearly noncombatant" things don't get the -4 to be blenderized feature, nor does it apply to its non-standard attacks - a hellhound would get the -4 on attempts to attack into it's bite attacks, but not on its doggy kicks.
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:22 AM   #25
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

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I do use the half-damage on parries houserule; I also give out the -4 to the skill roll to turn a parry into a damaging attack to my monsters rather freely as well. They may not be using Karate, but they have a perk or something that lets them use that feature. *shrug* (if you can't tell, I'm of the "whatever" school when it comes to monsters).
Does the -4 apply only on the "to-hit" roll after a Parry? Or is it like the Aggressive Parry technique, in which the defender accepts a penalty to parry which allows him to then inflict damage to the attacker?
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:31 AM   #26
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

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Does the -4 apply only on the "to-hit" roll after a Parry? Or is it like the Aggressive Parry technique, in which the defender accepts a penalty to parry which allows him to then inflict damage to the attacker?
On the to-hit roll.
I am a big ferocious werewolf, I tried to bite your face off. I hit!
You are a Knight with a two-handed sword. You parry me in the face as usual.
You decide to take the opportunity to carve me in the face - you roll Full (not Parry value) Two-Handed Sword skill, with -4 to hit[1]. You hit!
You do half damage to my face. Owwwwww!

It's the benefit from using Karate instead of Brawling or DX, extended to other creatures on some of their attacks, which is probably worth a perk per attacking limb type and skill; ie if you want that on your Boxing punches, and your Brawling headbutts, it's two perks. It's an extra perk for your Brawling punches (different from your Boxing punches) or your Brawling kicks.

[1] I haven't been applying hit location penalties, because really your sword is right there... but sometimes I contemplate applying half hitlocation penalties, like with grappling.
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Old 01-17-2012, 08:45 AM   #27
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

Hmm... I think the big problem with the damage-on-parry rules as they exist is not that the defender gets to roll full skill*, but that the attacker doesn't get any defense against the counter hit. How much sense would it make to give a perk or technique that allows the subject of an Aggressive or Armed Parry to get a parry or dodge roll? I could picture it as a souped-up version of the Rapid Retraction perk.

*In your example house rule, that -4 would be applied to the full skill of the defender - ie, Skill 20+ for most of the DF melee templates, meaning no reduction in to-hit chance.
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Old 01-17-2012, 09:25 AM   #28
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

Perhaps it's that I've been mostly playing Barbarians (as expected) and spellcasters, where the skills are in the 14-17 range, so that -4 is really obvious.

But don't forget that everything else except hit location still applies - footing penalties, lighting penalties, penalty to attack to the side hex instead of front hex, yadda yadda. I had PCs in caves, with slippery floors and crouched under low ceilings, being attacked by 1' tall angry golems that were hidden in a treasure chest. Which sounds funny until you realize a stone or steel golem 1' high is actually pretty tough.

Adding an active defense against it with some sort of point expenditure is an idea. There's that -3 to parry unarmed vs weapons, which means it's going to be hard for most critters (not using Judo or Karate - or not having a perk/technique to give that feature of Judo/Karate) and I'd have to say they're defending with the attacked limb, not with some extra limb better suited for this. So if a Unicorn kicks you and you Parry it and decide to take the edge to it, it can't then response-Parry with it's striker horn.
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:18 AM   #29
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

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Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog View Post
Of course they can use Deceptive Attack, Feint, flanking, etc. but generally there is a steady chance of effectively self-inflicted injury.

So how does your 500 point wolf avoid that?
Maybe by being 500 lbs and knocking his opponent prone? I think there might be some merit in looking how an animal or wolf in this case, actually fights. When they fighting other animals they have similar issues due to the lack of armor.

If I recall my National Geographic special correctly. It seems that non pack predators try to knock their opponent down with their mass and bite for a vulnerable spot like the neck. Defense is handled by step back and dodge. And multiple opponents result in the predator backing off.

Then there are pack tactics like those of wolves.
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Old 01-17-2012, 10:35 AM   #30
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Default Re: [DF] Big Bad Wolf

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Originally Posted by robertsconley View Post
Maybe by being 500 lbs and knocking his opponent prone? I think there might be some merit in looking how an animal or wolf in this case, actually fights. When they fighting other animals they have similar issues due to the lack of armor.

If I recall my National Geographic special correctly. It seems that non pack predators try to knock their opponent down with their mass and bite for a vulnerable spot like the neck. Defense is handled by step back and dodge. And multiple opponents result in the predator backing off.

Then there are pack tactics like those of wolves.
Right, and a parry against the initial attack tends to involve getting the blade between you and the animal, often point first... meaning that full damage on the 'free' follow up attack to a successful parry with a sword or spear might not even be too unrealistic, although full swing damage seems like it should still be deprecated.

The main answer, apart from house rules or having the Big Bad Wolf take a Striker (Teeth) variation on Striker (Limb), is again in actual animal behavior. They can tell when you have something long and pointy between them and your throat, so I'd imagine that they'd make a lot of use of Deceptive Attack and/or Feint, even if the latter delays the point at which they can actually get a piece of you between their teeth.
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