Cost of Less Sleep vs Doesn't Sleep

[GnomesofZurich]

I've viewed Doesn't Sleep as Less Sleep 4 [8] plus Less Sleep 4 (Cosmic, May take more than 4 levels, +50% [12].

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

If the effect of the drug was sleep instead of unconsciousness, then Doesn't Sleep would provide immunity to drugs like that and Less Sleep 8 wouldn't.

I don't quite know what to say. Did you read the post you are responding to?

Slowly, for the reading impaired, the default in a hard science campaign is that drugs meant for one species will not work the same way against other species. In light of that, anyone planning to drug a character of a species that doesn't sleep will choose a drug that works on his species. It doesn't matter whether he has Less Sleep 8 or Doesn't Sleep because for a species that doesn't sleep, it's unlikely that a hard science campaign will feature Sleep drugs. But the foe drugging him doesn't care, because in a hard science campaign, he's not going to care whether his drug caused unconsciousness or sleep, as long as the character is out.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Also, why would Doesn't Sleep provide no protection against Drowsy/Sleep effects? It is an advantage that negates non-Cosmic sleep-inducing afflictions. If there are two parahumans, the only difference between their racial/genetic templates being that one is resistant to Drowsy/Sleep effects, while the other is immune to them, this is not a Feature. Now, trading one susceptibility for another is a different case (indeed a Feature); but this trait is specifically for being immune to sleep-inducing effects (in addition to not needing sleep).

I'm not saying that it's no protection. I'm just saying that this protection is worth a trivial amount of points, because in a hard science campaign, anything different enough from humanity not to sleep will also be different enough so that most normal drugs will affect them completely differently. Anyone trying to drug them would know that and either use a drug that was tailored for their species or one that worked on a wide variety of things, probably something that caused FP damage.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'm not saying that it's no protection. I'm just saying that this protection is worth a trivial amount of points, because in a hard science campaign, anything different enough from humanity not to sleep will also be different enough so that most normal drugs will affect them completely differently. Anyone trying to drug them would know that and either use a drug that was tailored for their species or one that worked on a wide variety of things, probably something that caused FP damage.

By that logic, DR vs Crushing is also a trivial protection (point-wise) because people will just use another damage type to affect the target.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

By that logic, DR vs Crushing is also a trivial protection (point-wise) because people will just use another damage type to affect the target.

Well, a lot of things that do crushing don't have an option to do anything else. Also, it is not a setting feature in hard science games that crushing only affects one species, whereas it is a setting feature that drugs are designed for one particular species at a time.

If you'd use another example, like DR vs. fire in a DF game or any other game with versatile wizards, I completely agree. 60% of unmodified DR cost is far too high for something that can and will be circumvented by simply switching to another attack mode. Limited DR is generally far too expensive, because it is priced assuming that will somehow be exploited by those who do have it, instead, as is much more common, circumvented by those who don't have it.

Pricing limitations on the assumptions that players will be gaming the system might make sense for traits that they have some kind of control over, but it breaks down when the control is on the other side.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Well, a lot of things that do crushing don't have an option to do anything else. Also, it is not a setting feature in hard science games that crushing only affects one species, whereas it is a setting feature that drugs are designed for one particular species at a time.

If you'd use another example, like DR vs. fire in a DF game or any other game with versatile wizards, I completely agree. 60% of unmodified DR cost is far too high for something that can and will be circumvented by simply switching to another attack mode. Limited DR is generally far too expensive, because it is priced assuming that will somehow be exploited by those who do have it, instead, as is much more common, circumvented by those who don't have it.

Pricing limitations on the assumptions that players will be gaming the system might make sense for traits that they have some kind of control over, but it breaks down when the control is on the other side.

Ah, under that assumption pricing down Immunity To Sleep Afflictions makes more sense.

[Bruno]

Realistic scifi games that result in people ONLY EVER taking the drugs that are designed for their species involves apparently unlimited resources and unlimited time to select the perfect drug. Needing to improvise by using medication (or, frankly, "foodstuffs" or other random things) intended for another species based on what it actually does for your species is one of those things that happens in the kinds of emergencies PCs get themselves into. Never mind that just because something was intended for a completely different purpose for another species isn't going to stop experimenters and poisoners from eventually figuring out that when you give NutraSweet in combination with Vitamin C to Rigelians, it konks them out.

And then there's THS-type settings where many or all sentient races have their origin in the life forms of one world, and possibly one species from one world, via genetic engineering (or historical settlement, if placed far enough in the future).

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I don't quite know what to say. Did you read the post you are responding to?

Slowly, for the reading impaired, the default in a hard science campaign is that drugs meant for one species will not work the same way against other species. In light of that, anyone planning to drug a character of a species that doesn't sleep will choose a drug that works on his species. It doesn't matter whether he has Less Sleep 8 or Doesn't Sleep because for a species that doesn't sleep, it's unlikely that a hard science campaign will feature Sleep drugs. But the foe drugging him doesn't care, because in a hard science campaign, he's not going to care whether his drug caused unconsciousness or sleep, as long as the character is out.

I could read your post just fine. Hard science campaigns could reasonably have genetically engineered humans and other Earth animals that are enhanced with either Doesn't Sleep or Less Sleep 8. Many nonhuman animal species on Earth also are affected by sleep and drowsiness causing drugs that affect the average human, regardless of those species' actual sleep requirements. Both mundane animals and genetically engineered humans would, I assume, have a potential place in a hard science campaign. A hard science campaign could also include divergent species descended from humans or other hominids that evolved on other worlds after having been taken there by ancient astronauts or by some lost ultra-tech prehistoric human civilization in the distant past (maybe not even soft-history, but well within hard-science).

Now, if we're dealing with true extraterrestrials, then sure, our drugs won't affect them - if they did it'd almost be grounds for giving credence to some strange ancient astronaut or galactic progenitor race theory and a somehow common evolutionary history. So of course it just makes common sense that we wouldn't attempt to drug an ET with a human sleeping drug; I just read that as "duh". On the other hand, if this was a species that humanity had been interacting with for some time, through either trade or (maybe especially) war, then it seems reasonable that we'd eventually develop or acquire drugs that affected them in ways analogous to human drug effects.

A species with Less Sleep 8 could theoretically have a drug designed to target them in such a way that the effect on them, in GURPS terms, is more akin to sleep than unconsciousness, whereas one with Doesn't Sleep could only be reduced to unconsciousness by any drugs we might develop. And in the case of creatures of Earth origin and similar enough to humans (nonhuman animals and enhanced humans), many of our existing sleep drugs might be effective on those with Less Sleep 8, whereas they wouldn't be for those with Doesn't Sleep.

I take your point about potentially not caring whether a drug knocks a foe unconscious or just makes them go to sleep. But that's assuming "foe". Sleep is a far less harsh effect than unconsciousness. A species with Less Sleep 8 that interacted with humans and learned of our "sleep" might be interested in seeing if they can replicate the state in themselves. as we might be, potentially for recreation, rejuvenation, spiritualism, or other reasons, and if humans developed it could even become a traded commodity. On the other hand, a species with Doesn't Sleep would simply turn out to have a different enough nervous system such that no effect could ever be produced in them that was analogous to human sleep and functioned like sleep in a GURPS mechanical sense. And the (mostly) Less Sleep 8 species might have genetic variability such that some of them have full blown Doesn't Sleep, or some limited version of either.

All of that fits within a hard science campaign, at least insofar as sapient xenobiological species (or genetically engineered humans that don't need sleep) can be considered hard science despite never having been observed (or developed). I wasn't being slow, I just obviously can't know exactly what you mean by hard science or about your implicit assumptions regarding what's possible therein, or what the inter-species relationships might be.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The last level of Less Sleep is obviously worth more than the first. I don't think that it's any kind of accident that Doesn't Sleep is worth more than 8 levels of Less Sleep, even in a hard science setting without supernatural sleep attacks.

Yeah. That's the point I was trying to make in my first post to the thread. Less Sleep works OK as a simple fixed value at the lower levels, but it is actually slightly more valuable with each successive level. Changing the cost to three points for levels five and up may not be unreasonable.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Limited DR is generally far too expensive, because it is priced assuming that will somehow be exploited by those who do have it, instead, as is much more common, circumvented by those who don't have it.

Actually, it seems to be priced to be reasonable on a character who takes cannot wear armor. With CWA, normal DR is 3 points, fire DR is 1 point, which is a lot closer to reasonable than 5 vs 3 (it's arguably still a bit overpriced, but much closer). It also, incidentally, matches with GURPS Supers for 3rd edition, which may not be a coincidence (I strongly dislike the CWA limitation, the marginal utility of +1 DR is not affected by whether or not you can wear armor, so the level cost should stay the same).