Tourneys and jousting

[Icelander]

I´ll be bringing the activities of knights increasingly to the fore in my fantasy campaign, as one of my players was knighted for valour and now has the income to buy land and maintain a stable of horses.

One of the things knights do in my quasi-medieval fantasy setting is compete in tourneys. That demands that I'm clear on the rules for them.

First of all, the joust is different from battle in many ways, with some targets being out of bounds, with a list between the contestants to prevent accidental collissions and with the object being to knock the opponent off his horse, not render him unable to fight. These all argue for the required skill to be Lance Sport and not Lance.

On the other hand, the joust is full contact. People die in it with rather more frequency than pro boxers die in their sport (which uses Boxing skill, not Boxing Sport). Broken bones are reckoned to be pretty normal and nearly everyone suffers gruesome bruises and concussions. And Lance is a pretty narrow skill, one which is restricted pretty much exclusively for riding at someone and couching a lance. Whether the objective is to kill or to knock someone off his horse, the usage of the weapon difffers little. These all argue for using the Lance skill.

Then there's the shield. According to normal GURPS rules, it's impossible to suffer knockback from a blow that hits your shield. According to period records and what videos I've seen of reenactors, plenty of people were knocked from their horse by a solid hit to their shield. I think I'll solve that by letting blows that are Blocked by a margin of success of 3 or less count normally for knockback, as they inflict damage on the shield.

I also dislike the assumption that tourney lances automatically break at 15 points of damage. That's simple, but given that lances sometimes didn't break when they ought, I think it's too simple and too safe.

What about I roll a HT roll for the lance whenever damage is 12 or more with a -1 penalty for every two points of damage over 12? With tourney lances having HT 10 unless someone is feeling vindictive? And the lance does as much damage as was needed to ensure that the roll failed, i.e. if the damage roll was 17 and the lance broke on a roll of 10, final damage would be 14. If the roll had been 9, final damage would be 14 and if the roll had been 11+, only 12 points of damage would be done.

Does anyone have further thoughts on how to model jousts and tourneys in general?

[aesir23]

I think those are all great adjustments, I'm especially a fan of your shields and knockback adjustment. As of this moment, that will be a house rule of mine in tournaments or not.

The lance health thing seems fine, but I'd suggest that Tourney Lances have fewer HP in addition to a lower health.

[benz72]

On the skill/sport skill idea, if they are using indistinguishable equipment in a nearly identical manner I'd call it a single skill. Alternatively, just have Lance Sport default to Lance -1 (or perhaps Lance-2) and vice versa. That way you could have 'tournament knights' and 'battle knights' but they are nearly as effective as each other in targeting with a lance.

If I recall corectly there were ruled in the 3E Harkwood supplement regarding tournaments with wasters/padded weapons.

[The Colonel]

Are we looking at the sort of period where jousting was established enough for contestants to wear specialised jousting armour or are they still using field armour?

[nik1979]

I think you're right in implying that Tourney as a combat sport doesnt exactly exist and the skill falls under "games" where in they know the rules but still use their actual combat skill.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Then there's the shield. According to normal GURPS rules, it's impossible to suffer knockback from a blow that hits your shield. According to period records and what videos I've seen of reenactors, plenty of people were knocked from their horse by a solid hit to their shield. I think I'll solve that by letting blows that are Blocked by a margin of success of 3 or less count normally for knockback, as they inflict damage on the shield.

Actually, any block (Or any other defense, for that matter) that succedes only with DB included, is a solid strike on the shield, and does damage to the shield. I've always counted that for knockback. Success by more indicates a blow that's "glanced away" or deflected so that the target doesn't absorb the impact of the blow.

[nik1979]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Actually, any block (Or any other defense, for that matter) that succedes only with DB included, is a solid strike on the shield, and does damage to the shield. I've always counted that for knockback. Success by more indicates a blow that's "glanced away" or deflected so that the target doesn't absorb the impact of the blow.

The funny thing about "deflecting" blows, is that it is assumed that Parrying is like a blocking with a weapon (thus the weapon breakage rule regarding it). One of those interesting tid-bits ARMA talks about is how nicks with real warswords comes from a Poorly executed parry where the force wasn't expert enough turn all the force away damaging the sword. Basically, a real expert swordsman, can keep the nicks from ruining his new sword better relatively.

With regards to shields, i should apply that to my melee house rules.

Thanks.


With regards of combat sport and "sports" with the intent to maintain combat readiness. I think one can learn the sport as a "game" skill separately. Roll the Game skill to win in the Combat Sport, but roll the Combat Skill to fulfill the objective of the exercise (which may not be winning, more often such exercises are meant to find bad habits, incorrect responses early, practice manuvers under simulated stressful conditions). basically agreeing that jousts are rolls of Lance (or Spear with Cavalry weapon Training).

As an easy skill, as a Game, it makes for more consistent TDMs when factors like cheating comes into play.

[D-Man]

Dragon Magazine about 7ish years ago had a very detailed article on running Tournaments and Jousting and Faire games in a D&D 3.0 game. It comprised most of the magazine if I recall correct. I wish I knew what issue it was so I could tell you. All mine are in storage. Sorry. Since GURPS is universal maybe trying to get a copy would serve you well?

Dennis

[sjard]

This might help a bit. And it isn't even very hard to convert to 4th edition GURPS.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Actually, any block (Or any other defense, for that matter) that succedes only with DB included, is a solid strike on the shield, and does damage to the shield. I've always counted that for knockback. Success by more indicates a blow that's "glanced away" or deflected so that the target doesn't absorb the impact of the blow.

Ah, quite right. I got it mixed up with the unarmed parries rule from MA. Yes, any Block that succeeds with a margin of DB or less is what I meant to say.