DR of shields? Why so much higher than ordinary slab of wood?

[Verjigorm]

Dan, will Low-Tech also include options for shields that were used while strapped onto the body? Such as the "buckler" I've read about Persian and Roman Cataphracts utilizing alongside their Kontos, or the aspis the Diadochi pikemen/phalangites used alongside their pikes?

[Kalzazz]

Most shields Ive seen were made either of some really sturdy styrofoam that is apparently custom ordered from somewhere, or trash can or storage tub lids covered in camp foam and fun noodle, with sewn cloth covers

Mine is made out of a sheet of plexiglass and then covered

All of which are significantly more effort than the sword building exercises

Hmmm. This may contribute to sword and shield being more deadly than two swords not because shields are the most deadly, but because only dedicated people have shields

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Most shields Ive seen were made either of some really sturdy styrofoam that is apparently custom ordered from somewhere, or trash can or storage tub lids covered in camp foam and fun noodle, with sewn cloth covers

Mine is made out of a sheet of plexiglass and then covered

All of which are significantly more effort than the sword building exercises

Hmmm. This may contribute to sword and shield being more deadly than two swords not because shields are the most deadly, but because only dedicated people have shields

Are you attempting to make this statement just in relation to Boffer fighting, or to combat in general? Because I don't think it's in anyway appliacable to realy combat, or even the inaccurate styles of the SCA.

[Kalzazz]

I imagine the shields being more difficult to make than swords may be something that applies only to certain LARP and boffer areas

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I imagine the shields being more difficult to make than swords may be something that applies only to certain LARP and boffer areas

Ok, understood. So those who use shields invest more time in them than those with two swords or what have you, which leads to a greater investment of time in learning how to use sword and shield, hence leading to a greater skill. And then, the inherent advantages of sword and shield become apparant.

Shields are superior to almost every weapon, in the degree to which they change the dynamic between warriors. Hence why shields have been extremely popular, despite what Pawsplay suggested earlier in the thread, which is false. Almost no combination was found superior to them, though Firearms and Plate did do a good job at supplanting the shield.

Also, I didn't mean to sound..harsh, if I did.

[Ultraviolet]

So, with the Low tech input of giving shields a mere DR 4, less for light shields, more for those with lots of steel in them (also, more weight), things are looking up for my vision of having fighters lose their shields during a fight.

Also, it's apparent, that the DR of a shield does *not* depend on the way you hit it, giving the DR a "sloping" bonus.
Because hitting less then optimal, means the opponent makes his Block, and the shield takes no damage. But making it by just the DB margin, means it's hit dead on, damaging it. Same as if deliberately attacking the shield, in order to destroy it.
Or that it's simply simplifying it.

A number og house rules comes to my mind, to make it more detailed - and comples - should that be desirable.

One could be, that if the attackers margin of Succes is higher than the defender's, the shield takes a single point of damage (alternatively 1/die of weapon damage). And using the RAW as for a defender's MOS only by shield's DB.
Another could be to simply assign the shield 1 HP loss per normal, succesful block (or 1/die to reflect larger weapons severity).

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Dan, will Low-Tech also include options for shields that were used while strapped onto the body? Such as the "buckler" I've read about Persian and Roman Cataphracts utilizing alongside their Kontos, or the aspis the Diadochi pikemen/phalangites used alongside their pikes?

Hung from a strap around the neck? Yes.

If it's not hangingly loosly and instead is firmly strapped onto the body, that's ARMOR. Bad armor, possibly, or improvised armor, possibly, or armor that can be removed and improvised as a shield, but it's still armor.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

inaccurate styles of the SCA.

SCA weapon balance is extremely inaccurate in this regard, IMO.

SCA has no shield damage and no shield strikes. This nerfs heavy weapons (which can be blocked forever) and overpowers two-weapon styles (which can strike with the off hand.) Even so, SCA combatants tend to favor sword and shield to two weapon. Partially due to historical accuracy, partially due to the vulnerability of two-weapon vs. pole arms, and partially due to the difficulty of doing two weapon well.

[Gavynn]

Originally Posted by martinl

SCA weapon balance is extremely inaccurate in this regard, IMO.

SCA has no shield damage and no shield strikes. This ... overpowers two-weapon styles (which can strike with the off hand.)

I have many complaints with SCA combat, but overpowered two-weapon styles is not one of them. I've never seen fighters with two handed weapons be anything close to effective. And as far as I am concerned that it pretty accurate. Despite Pawsplay's attempts earlier in this thread to convince everyone that warriors frequently went into battle with two single handed weapons and not shields, I just don't see the evidence for that.

So good good good for more realistic shield treatment as far as damage rules go. Can't wait to read them. I love that GURPS give shields something to do instead of just a +1 AC like it was back in AD&D.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Gavynn

I have many complaints with SCA combat, but overpowered two-weapon styles is not one of them. I've never seen fighters with two handed weapons be anything close to effective. And as far as I am concerned that it pretty accurate. Despite Pawsplay's attempts earlier in this thread to convince everyone that warriors frequently went into battle with two single handed weapons and not shields, I just don't see the evidence for that.

So good good good for more realistic shield treatment as far as damage rules go. Can't wait to read them. I love that GURPS give shields something to do instead of just a +1 AC like it was back in AD&D.

QFT. The only two instances I can think of two single hand weapons are a character in a Viking Saga and Miyomoto Musashi's Nito Ichi Ryu. And in the case of the viking, we just don't really know, though he was definitely an exception rather than the Rule. And in Musashi, the two swords arn't always used simultaneously.

Now of course, there are things like Kali and Escrima. But shields are the most common, and there must be a reason. Effectiveness seems to make alot of sense.