Crafting Masterwork, Fine and Balanced Weapons

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I think Kromm has made it clear (not to mention that I seem to recall a statement in Basic Set) that surgeons require skill 14+. Realistically, that's usually in a quite specialised field, of course.

And working in an operating theatre of TL6+, with qualified assistants, gives equipment and Complimentary Skill bonuses that easily give effective skill 16+ for any kind of surgery that isn't fiendishly complex or risky.

OK, 14 is higher than 12, but I suppose '12ish' isn't that far off. But yes, qualified assistants etc. is a positive TDM for mundane situations.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

OK, 14 is higher than 12, but I suppose '12ish' isn't that far off. But yes, qualified assistants etc. is a positive TDM for mundane situations.

Technically, Task Difficulty Modifiers are based on how challenging the task to be performed is and are highly situationally dependent, while bonuses for tools and the use of Complementary Skills are bonuses that are strictly defined in the rules and apply in all situations, not merely mundane ones.

Fine equipment is still Fine equipment under fire and the Complementary Skill use of Physician or First-Aid by an assistant can give bonuses to emergency surgery in a combat zone, not just an operating theatre.*

A master blacksmith with a really nice forge, skill 16+ in Metallurgy and another extremely talented master craftsman to act as his assistant (with skill 16+, so he'll almost always succeed at his Complementary Skill use) can rely on +4 to his crafting roll from tools, his own knowledge of metals and his assistant. That applies whether he's doing something mundane with a positive TDM or not.

The problem is that this +4 is as high as he can get with bonuses until TL6. And that means that realistically skilled human blacksmiths just don't make crafting rolls with margins of success like 12+ or 18+ often enough for the prices of Fine (Materials) or (Balanced and Materials) weapons other than swords to make sense. Even if we give him skill 18, only a critical success 4 or lower on the dice makes a Fine (Balanced and Materials) spear or axe, but yet such weapons are available for similar prices as a Good-quality sword.

Crafting rules that don't take into account the fact that a Good-quality sword and a Good-quality axe or spear are not equally difficult to make are quite unusable when coupled with a pricing scheme for weapons that implicitly assumes just that fact.

*An operating theatre is at minimum Fine (+2) and often best equipment possible at the TL, for TL/2 tool bonus.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

A pro surgeon is skill 12ish. If you always roll without a positive TDM, you're in trouble.

They get positive modifiers, but not for 'low-stress' or 'routine use'. Instead, their bonuses come from equipment, helpers, and time (or for how difficult an operation is to perform). These are all spelled out in detail in Bio-Tech.

But they definitely do not get a bonus simply for using it 'outside of combat'.

[GodBeastX]

I built a char with these rules that was 150 points for a campaign, and I was able to do Very Fine and Fine weapons regularly. I got talent for smithing, with a great deal of points in it and some of the craft secrets. I think I even made a post how I wish there was more written about.

It was great for the campaign because NPCs were seeking out my smith who humbly dwelt in a small village.

They seem to make sense to me considering 25 skill is considered master and a Very Fine weapon is considered Masterwork (Worked by a master).

I don't see a problem.

You could probably even take extra time to make the weapons for even more bonus.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

I built a char with these rules that was 150 points for a campaign, and I was able to do Very Fine and Fine weapons regularly. I got talent for smithing, with a great deal of points in it and some of the craft secrets. I think I even made a post how I wish there was more written about.

It was great for the campaign because NPCs were seeking out my smith who humbly dwelt in a small village.

They seem to make sense to me considering 25 skill is considered master and a Very Fine weapon is considered Masterwork (Worked by a master).

I don't see a problem.

You could probably even take extra time to make the weapons for even more bonus.

Skill 25 is 'higher than any human who has ever lived' - it's cinematically unrealistic.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Langy

Skill 25 is 'higher than any human who has ever lived' - it's cinematically unrealistic.

Are there yet guidelines for what it takes in the world to gain certain skill levels or points in skills, or what typical world demographics of skill levels might be like?

Because, from another point of view:

Godfrey Goodsmith
IQ 10, 60 points in blacksmith = Blacksmith 25, 60 point character.

and

Quirkle Goodsmith
As Godfrey but 40 points in disadvantages, Blacksmith 25, 20 point character.

Meanwhile according to books like Special Ops, hard-core military training results in 400-point characters.

My point being, clearly you could adjust the LT smithing rules to give you the rarity of fine and very fine weapon production you want, but you'd need to both decide what you want, and match it to your idea of what skill levels make sense (what it takes to get them, how many people in the world will have what levels, and what the limits are).

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Are there yet guidelines for what it takes in the world to gain certain skill levels or points in skills, or what typical world demographics of skill levels might be like?

Yes, in several places. Here's a guideline from Template Toolkit 1 - Characters:

Values Description Notes
8-9 Novice Skills unimportant to personal or professional success.
10-11 Amateur Hobbies and secondary job skills.
12-13 Low-Risk Professional Primary job skills for most jobs, including somewhat risky ones like “pilot,” “soldier,” and “doctor.”
14-15 High-Risk Professional Primary job skills for risky jobs, like “fighter pilot,” “commando,” and “surgeon.”
16-19 Expert Someone good enough to stand out in even a risky field.
20+ Master One of the top people alive or of all time in any field.

Then there is Tactical Shooting:

Typical Skill Level Type of Shootist
Default Street criminals, irregular forces, untrained armed citizens
Up to 11 Beat cops, draft soldiers, trained terrorists, occasional hunters, or trained armed citizens
Up to 13 Federal agents, part-time SWAT officers, professional soldiers, or frequent hunters
Up to 15 Remarkable SWAT officers or special-ops soldiers
Up to 18 Exceptional hostage-rescue operators and snipers

There was at least one more, which described things in terms of 'best in a generation' and such like that (best in a generation was, I believe, skill 19 or so). I don't remember where it is, though.

But yes, a 400 point character can be 'realistic' - but a skill 25 blacksmith being an everyday occurrence is not (and very fine weapons, while very nice, aren't supposed to be vanishingly rare). Even having skill 25 at all should probably be relegated to 'supposed to match fiction but not reality' type stuff.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Langy

But yes, a 400 point character can be 'realistic' - but a skill 25 blacksmith being an everyday occurrence is not (and very fine weapons, while very nice, aren't supposed to be vanishingly rare). Even having skill 25 at all should probably be relegated to 'supposed to match fiction but not reality' type stuff.

vanising rare? no just as rare as Strativtus violins.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

vanising rare? no just as rare as Strativtus violins.

If Fine (Balanced and Materials) spears and axes were meant to be as rare as Stradivarius violins, their pricing makes no sense. A Fine (Balanced and Materials) Spear costs $280, or slghtly more than an ordinary trumpet (LT p. 49), while a Fine (Balanced and Materials) Axe is $600, or the same as an ordinary harp (LT p. 49). An ordinary violin is probably less expensive than the harp, more expensive than the trumpet.

The crafting rules make these Fine (Balanced and Materials) weapons equally difficult to make as $20,000 Very Fine (Materials) swords and infinitely more difficult than musical instruments of ordinary quality. Yet the musical instruments are not less expensive and the materials costs, by the crafting rules, are similar.

How does the time of the skill 25 weaponsmith, who by the rules is needed to make Fine (Balanced and Materials) spears and axes, cost about as much as the time of the skill 12 woodcarver who makes the instruments?

It doesn't make any sense. You can't have such weapons be fairly affordable to ordinary people and yet require a legendary master craftsman to make them.

[weby]

I have not looked at the low tech crafting system in detail as I use a completely different system(with slightly different cost modifiers too). But one of the things from that system that might work to modify the default system is that difficulty modifiers are not fully additive.

In my system the crafter takes the highest penalty and 1/3 of the lower penalties. So a crafter doing a fine(-3 to craft) balanced(-3 to craft) weapon would take -4 total penalty.

All extra times are multiples of the base item time and they are added fully together. So the fine(+2 time factor or +0.3 for impaling or crushing only) balanced(+0.3 time factor) weapon would have a base creation time of 3.3(or 1.6) times that of a normal weapon