Crafting Masterwork, Fine and Balanced Weapons

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by Langy

That doesn't apply to skills whose 'default' use condition isn't 'in an adventuring situation' - it specifically does not include crafting or inventing skills.

So if you're using those skills in a stressful environment, like MacGyver trying to craft something in a firefight, should you get a penalty? Or does stress just not impact crafting?

This would be a lot simpler if there was just a straight up +4 bonus you always get for not being in a stressful situation. The way things are in the RAW, there's a huge amount of variance in the way different GMs handle the TDMs. I've played with a number of GMs who just don't give out bonuses, and I think that's in large part due to a lack of clarity in the rules.

[chimchim]

Originally Posted by Langy

That doesn't apply to skills whose 'default' use condition isn't 'in an adventuring situation' - it specifically does not include crafting or inventing skills.

The bonus does apply. Page 173 under base skill verses effective skill states ordinary poeople almost always recieve the bonus ar mondane tasks. Making a sword is a mundane task for a sword smith.
Note also the bonus is +4 or more.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by chimchim

The bonus does apply. Page 173 under base skill verses effective skill states ordinary poeople almost always recieve the bonus ar mondane tasks. Making a sword is a mundane task for a sword smith.
Note also the bonus is +4 or more.

Note the 'almost' there, Chimchim. It does not apply to crafting skills, just like it doesn't apply to magic skills or to surgery (which is considered to always be stressful).

That bonus for 'not in a firefight/other highly stressful situation' almost never applies to anything that's typically an hours- or days-long task. It doesn't apply to Hiking rolls, either, for example.

Crafting things in the middle of a firefight calls for a penalty to skill, not the negation of a bonus - and not just because you're dodging bullets but because you're going at inhuman speeds, too.

[chimchim]

Originally Posted by Langy

Note the 'almost' there, Chimchim. It does not apply to crafting skills, just like it doesn't apply to magic skills or to surgery (which is considered to always be stressful).

That bonus for 'not in a firefight/other highly stressful situation' almost never applies to anything that's typically an hours- or days-long task. It doesn't apply to Hiking rolls, either, for example.

Crafting things in the middle of a firefight calls for a penalty to skill, not the negation of a bonus - and not just because you're dodging bullets but because you're going at inhuman speeds, too.

I once asked if magic benefitted from the tdm bonus and krom said yes see this thread for details.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=6978

[Langy]

Originally Posted by chimchim

I once asked if magic benefitted from the tdm bonus and krom said yes see this thread for details.
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=6978

Re-read his comment. It does not say that you get a blanket 'not under stress' task difficulty modifier; he says that if you've performed the same task hundreds of times over years of time then you can claim a difficulty modifier. That's not at all the same thing as saying 'not in stress' - that's 'hyper-specific practice'.

Crafting skills aren't the same, and there is never a time when you could reasonably use them in adventuring conditions (because they take much, much longer to complete than adventures last). You're arguing for crafting skills to always take a big TDM bonus, and that's exactly the opposite of what those TDMs are for (that is, they're there to represent doing a task outside of the normal use for the skill - and crafting things is the normal use of a crafting skill!).

[simply Nathan]

Standard "adventuring task" use of crafting skills is to repair/maintain your gear in the field, build an improvised bridge, barricade a door, and stuff like that.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Remember that basic skill level is for adventuring. If you have skill 12, you have skill 12 while dodging bullets. If you are peacefully at your mundane work, you can and should add various modifier, starting with the +4 from 'not under stress'. So yes, skill 12-13 is enough to get by in a mundane job. This does not solve the economic problem pointed by Icelander, of course.
Celjabba

Originally Posted by Langy

That doesn't apply to skills whose 'default' use condition isn't 'in an adventuring situation' - it specifically does not include crafting or inventing skills.

Originally Posted by chimchim

The bonus does apply. Page 173 under base skill verses effective skill states ordinary poeople almost always recieve the bonus ar mondane tasks. Making a sword is a mundane task for a sword smith.
Note also the bonus is +4 or more.

Originally Posted by Langy

Re-read his comment. It does not say that you get a blanket 'not under stress' task difficulty modifier; he says that if you've performed the same task hundreds of times over years of time then you can claim a difficulty modifier. That's not at all the same thing as saying 'not in stress' - that's 'hyper-specific practice'.

Crafting skills aren't the same, and there is never a time when you could reasonably use them in adventuring conditions (because they take much, much longer to complete than adventures last). You're arguing for crafting skills to always take a big TDM bonus, and that's exactly the opposite of what those TDMs are for (that is, they're there to represent doing a task outside of the normal use for the skill - and crafting things is the normal use of a crafting skill!).

For a smith, mundane tasks are crafting nails, shovels, horseshoes and hoes. A weaponsmith mundanely makes knives, arrowheads and spearheads. Making swords, which are at least an order of magnitude more expensive than common weapons, is probably never a really mundane task.

I'm not opposed to having Armoury (Melee Weapons) and Smith (Iron) receive TDMs for crafting rolls when making simpler and common items than the blacksmith is theoretically capable of forging.

All the same, I note that the crafting rules in LTC2 carefully avoid making any mention of positive TDMs, refrain entirely from suggesting that there is any difference in difficulty between the crafting of various types of weapons* and instead demand a ludicrously high margin of success for any weapon described as Fine. Furthermore, using Craft Perks imposes hefty penalties to crafting skills, instead of being noted as reducing a positive TDM.

So, whether or not crafting skills should routinely benefit from positive TDMs, the fact is that nothing in the rules as written in LTC2 suggests that they ever do so. And that's a huge oversight, for if there are no guidelines to assigning TDMs there, where else would they be?

*Forging a sword takes longer than a bodkin point by the crafting rules, but there is no suggestion that a higher skill level is needed to reliably do it.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Langy

Note the 'almost' there, Chimchim. It does not apply to crafting skills, just like it doesn't apply to magic skills or to surgery (which is considered to always be stressful).

That bonus for 'not in a firefight/other highly stressful situation' almost never applies to anything that's typically an hours- or days-long task. It doesn't apply to Hiking rolls, either, for example.

Crafting things in the middle of a firefight calls for a penalty to skill, not the negation of a bonus - and not just because you're dodging bullets but because you're going at inhuman speeds, too.

A pro surgeon is skill 12ish. If you always roll without a positive TDM, you're in trouble.

[Anthony]

Realistically, most skills are much less random than GURPS makes them, or are random in a different way (i.e. the randomness comes from whether or not you know how to do a specific task at all, or from persistent situational modifiers).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

A pro surgeon is skill 12ish. If you always roll without a positive TDM, you're in trouble.

I think Kromm has made it clear (not to mention that I seem to recall a statement in Basic Set) that surgeons require skill 14+. Realistically, that's usually in a quite specialised field, of course.

And working in an operating theatre of TL6+, with qualified assistants, gives equipment and Complimentary Skill bonuses that easily give effective skill 16+ for any kind of surgery that isn't fiendishly complex or risky.