Ziusudra / Nyx questions

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Does the PRC Space Marine get all those normal childhood memories or not? If he does how do they cram 18 years of life into 2?

You'd have to ask DP.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

You'd have to ask DP.

I'm not trying to understand what TS76 means; I'm fairly confident that my interpretation is good (at least for my version of TS). I'm trying to understand what you are getting at. In your version of TS does the PRC Space Marine get an entire simulated normal childhood, or not? You seem to be saying incompatible things.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That's not a normal childhood, though.

What's not normal about it? Other 5W kids are getting their cultural indoctrination through VR and slink, just like schoolkids have been getting cultural indoctrination through the latest mass media since the advent of printed books. They are routinely told fables about the world and their place in it. The above example might be taken from Mormon dogma about spirit children, for instance.

In fact, if I were the cynical preceptor working for Xiao Chu, I would look very closely at LDS parenting methods, as populations with large LDS contingents have superior mental health stats and have literally more young people lined up for missionary work than they can use.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm not trying to understand what TS76 means; I'm fairly confident that my interpretation is good (at least for my version of TS). I'm trying to understand what you are getting at. In your version of TS does the PRC Space Marine get an entire simulated normal childhood, or not? You seem to be saying incompatible things.

Sigh. If you can actually cite the things that strike you as incompatible, I will explain. Or I'll sit bazinga'd, occasionally I do wander off the tracks when my blood oxygen drops.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

What's not normal about it?

Besides that most children aren't told that they aren't real people, and their lives are a simulation? Does this version have purpose-driven lesson plans and abbreviated simplified events over a subjective less-than-18-years? Or is just a bunch of semi-random events over a subjective 18 years?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Sigh. If you can actually cite the things that strike you as incompatible, I will explain.

1. I said that I doubted that a PRC Space Marine needs a simulated childhood. You said that they did to be functional and effective (not "child-soldiers"). I gave an example of some random events from a hypothetical normal Chinese childhood, as representative of an entire normal human childhood and asked if they were necessary. You then justified each of them as required. I then expressed doubt that this was necessary, cost-effective, consistent with TS76 (badly socialized workaholics) and even technologically possible in TS. You cited only the technological question and accused me of a strawman.
   
   Does the PRC Space Marine need the simulated childhood or not? If he does, how does this jive with TS76?
   
2. The thing I said that you seem to be objecting to is that bioroid brain development is unlike normal human brain development. Now we seem to actually agree on the biological and technical aspects of this, but we seem to disagree on the psychological aspects and the general nature of the VR-based phase of bioroid training. I say that it's unlike a normal human childhood. You seem to be saying that's wrong, and it is like a simulated normal human childhood siting the Minx vignette. I point out that I believe those aspects of the Minx vignette are intended for the "enjoyment" of the monster who commissioned her. You seem to agree with that. You then describe a training program that isn't like simulating a normal childhood, such as telling the bioroid that the environment is a simulation and they aren't a person, and giving military training throughout the entire development rather than at beginning of adulthood.
   
   Is it like a simulation of a normal human childhood, or not?

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Besides that most children aren't told that they aren't real people, and their lives are a simulation?

Kids were told they were delivered by storks, or were grown in cabbage patches, so being delivered by a spaceship and grown in a tube seems okay for the 5W meme pool. In fact, I've just described the post-Crisis Superman's origin, and comics readers still manage to identify with him okay.

Kids have also been told their lives are worth less than that of a Spartiate or a noble or a god-king or an Englishman, but have somehow persevered.

As for their lives being a simulation, I've explained how they can tell the difference between the slink and the real world stimuli. And 2W+ schoolkids are already sent to a special place with different rules to learn their lessons, and are frequently exhorted, "When you go out into the real world, you will not be able to get away with X, you must do Y" et al.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Is it like a simulation of a normal human childhood, or not?

I think our lack of agreement is largely due to the scope of "like" and the characterization of "normal". I can't evision what you must include or exclude when you use the phrase "normal human childhood", but there are probably some things common to that and my slinkucation concept. I don't think everyone would agree that they would be alike.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I said that I doubted that a PRC Space Marine needs a simulated childhood. You said that they did to be functional and effective (not "child-soldiers"). I gave an example of some random events from a hypothetical normal Chinese childhood, as representative of an entire normal human childhood and asked if they were necessary. You then justified each of them as required.

Rather, I justified each childhood item as being important for developing a desirable adult trait. That is not the same as being required, not all adults have all desirable traits, and some adults get their desirable traits from different desirable traits.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I then expressed doubt that this was necessary, cost-effective, consistent with TS76 (badly socialized workaholics) and even technologically possible in TS. You cited only the technological question and accused me of a strawman.

TS76, says "model citizen a fairly clueless workaholic". As a person who has been described as a fairly clueless workaholic, I don't consider this so broad a range. There is also the testimony by many workaholics that they are driven by the expectations of others to put in as many hours as they do, which may make the workaholic possibility *more* socialized than the model citizen.

One of the strawmen/excluded middles in question is implicit in the response. "So an entire 18 years of development in full detail played at 9x speed with an eight week bootcamp at the very end (in 6 days)?" which is at an extreme end of the possibilities discussed (not suggested by me at any time), supported only by some (very) speculative arithmetic.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

I can't evision what you must include or exclude when you use the phrase "normal human childhood",

The actual childhood experiences of a typical 4th or 5th wave human child. Terrel's niece that was Rachel's donor, for example.

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Rather, I justified each childhood item as being important for developing a desirable adult trait. That is not the same as being required, not all adults have all desirable traits, and some adults get their desirable traits from different desirable traits.

It was meant to be an example of some of the 6x10^8 experiences in a human childhood and to stand for the entire thing. Since you then argued for them, and without clarification, it seems like you were arguing for inclusion of the entire representative childhood. Since my intent was for it to be illustrative, and not exclusive, it really seems odd that you would answer in the specific and expect to be understood. I'm not as versed in logic as you clearly are, but that seems to be the same sort of fallacy you keep accusing me of.

I still really don't understand what you mean even now. Can you state as positive statements what that is?

TS76, says "model citizen a fairly clueless workaholic". As a person who has been described as a fairly clueless workaholic, I don't consider this so broad a range. There is also the testimony by many workaholics that they are driven by the expectations of others to put in as many hours as they do, which may make the workaholic possibility *more* socialized than the model citizen.

Okay, but it describes the process of them getting this way by work-related training combined with less considered choices of entertainment slinks for socialization. Not by the detailed simulation of a normal childhood.

One of the strawmen/excluded middles in question is implicit in the response. "So an entire 18 years of development in full detail played at 9x speed with an eight week bootcamp at the very end (in 6 days)?" which is at an extreme end of the possibilities discussed (not suggested by me at any time), supported only by some (very) speculative arithmetic.

How is it speculative? TS76 says canonically 1 to 2 years. The People's Liberation Army currently recruits in late teens at the earliest and is unlikely to have changed much (for baselines) in 2100. 18/2=9.

As for not suggesting it, I'm clearly not understanding you, since you seem to keep saying exactly that. You say it's a normal childhood. A normal childhood is 18 years. I give an illustrative example of random childhood events and you argue that they are important enough to include. If it's important to include eating moon festival cakes, that's 14 or so remembered moon festivals, and birthdays, and 5510 breakfasts, and so on. Are they all equally important?