Everyone get +4 for free against berserkers

[DocRailgun]

I think you're missing the point that GURPS is a generic ruleset. Not every Advantage, Disadvantage, weapon, or combat maneuver has to be optimal.

Originally Posted by Anthony

If a maneuver translates as 'why would I ever use this', it's not fine. Unless you're basically untrained, all-out attack is a terrible option.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by DocRailgun

I think you're missing the point that GURPS is a generic ruleset. Not every Advantage, Disadvantage, weapon, or combat maneuver has to be optimal.

Okay, but it's also unrealistic. There's certainly a wide range of offense vs defense, but the situations where you aren't using some degree of evasive movement are basically zero.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Actually, that's not the issue. The issue is whether they will be unable to attack you next turn, which basically translates as 'already stunned'.

Well that simply changes which second they are "unavailable". For most non combatants, the first one to hit wins. Even for combatants getting a knife to the guts will stun virtually anyone.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Okay, but it's also unrealistic. There's certainly a wide range of offense vs defense, but the situations where you aren't using some degree of evasive movement are basically zero.

Are talking about all out attacks for berserkers or in general as a tactic? Berserkers are by nature dangerously insane.

[Refplace]

All Out Attack is a perfectly viable mode when your foes cant hurt you and even possibly useful if your pretty sure you can kill your foe before he has a chance to strike back.
So saying it should not be allowed because it is not right for all situations is silly.

[Johnny Angel]

All-Out Attack is something that I believe cannot be judged solely on one possible situation. On a personal level, do I feel it's usually stupid to put myself in a situation where I cannot defend myself? Yeah, I do, but that's because the default situation I think of is one-on-one, and because I'm trained to view combat in a particular way. Still, there are times when an all-out can be a good idea.

1) You feel confident that your enemy cannot hurt you. I've seen this occur in-game during fights between someone who was heavily armored and someone who was poorly armed.

2) You have friends who can help you defend. There are perks and techniques which allow for a group to fight together and defend each other. This is a technique I've used in a game before, and it can work really well. One guy can AOA to dish out punishment, and those around him can use some of their defenses to defend him.

3) Chances are you're going to die anyway, so you want to go out swinging...
Sometimes, going for the lucky shot; the dying act of heroics is the only thing you have left. You're beaten and broken, and running away is no longer an option, so you decide to swing for the fences and hope for the best.

4) You're confident that you can kill your foe in one shot, and he won't be able to respond.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

One of the scariest things I've ever seen was a Teamwork-equipped party with Shield-Wall and defensive-attacking Weapon-Master in front, and the big-but-slow heavy doing all-out-attacks from behind with a long-reaching weapon, in a channelized environment (Dungeon-crawling). (And actually, the "channelized environment" wasn't really needed, they provided good defensive coverage even in open-field fighting, particularly once the Weapon Master got Sacrificial Parry)

There are situations where AoA is very bad, but at the same time, there are situations where AoA is very good.

[Blood Legend]

When I GM, my NPCs don't automatically recognize an all-out attack. That requires a perception based skill roll for situational awareness at -4, +2 with combat relfexes, +2 if telegraphed, + any additional evaluate bonus, which I treat as an automatic process. They (I) wont take explicit advantage of an All-Out Attack unless they detect it. Otherwise, foes continue dumping skill levels into deceptive strikes or making useless feints.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I would probably either allow berserkers to make Committed Attacks or change All-Out Attack to be a -4 to defense (cannot retreat, cannot defend with a weapon used this turn).

The latter is something I played with long ago, though never injected full-scale into a game. Essentially, I was looking for another way to let highly skilled fighters – say, a Bruce Lee type – do more amazing stuff without negating every scrap of defense. A -4 defense penalty for taking All-Out Attack effectively nerfs defense for unskilled fighters, but still leaves Bruce with a possibility of defense while he makes double attacks or whatever else AoA allows. (I especially thought it sensible for the reason gilbertocarlos pointed out: Even stunned characters get a defense at -4; surely an unstunned Bruce Lee could maintain that much defense regardless of his attack choices?)

BUT, I left the idea behind, instead focusing on things skilled fighters could do as a tradeoff for TH. Like multiple attacks, now a happy part of 4e, along with other nifty new 4e options like Committed Attack.

Still, though... the idea of AoA creating a big defense penalty, instead of nuking defense, has appeal. It lets the other guy remain confident that he'll overcome an all-out attacker's defenses, but not boringly certain... It'd be fun to play with the idea again, or hear other people's playtest reports. (And in the absence of any change there, I agree: it may be more fun to let berserkers make Committed Attacks, perhaps with a reduction in the point value of the disad.)

Whatever is or isn't done to AoA, though, let me give the 4e team a thumbs-up for Telegraphic Attack. It's one of my favorite additions to the rules: it's really simple, and gets the feel of low-skill fighters just right. With Telegraphic Attack, the unskilled don't just whiff harmlessly at air, as they typically do in other RPGs; rather, they can manage to get on target, but are easy to defend against. Perfect! (It was also a thoroughly new idea to me, and not an addition that lets me haughtily sniff "oh, I was playing that well before 4e." : )

[Balor Patch]

Berserk can be a good deal in a very low level campaigns. When the best defenses are 13's including retreat and HT runs 11-13, taking AoA (double) isn't much of a loss and the +4 is huge. Once defenses get serious then not having any gets very serious.