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Old 11-30-2021, 10:33 AM   #21
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Less than one hex monster

Regarding bloodhawks, I've rethought my previous ruling. I'd said that they, like dragonets, could be two to a hex (even with one full-sized enemy). In terms of size, that makes some sense.

However, a bloodhawk does 1d+3 damage and usually gets a first attack for free. This is a significant threat. Two bloodhawks attacking on the same turn would get an average damage of about 10.8 points, which is deadly indeed given that they prefer to attack wounded or unarmored people.

Instead, I plan to play them thus: They gang up by surrounding a weak character, so that the character has limited options to shift (assuming the bloodhawks move first). The hawks are limited to one per hex. They engage only those in the same hex (and only when they wish to, since they fly), so a person can shift out from under a hawk, but if he's surrounded by other hawks, then the shift doesn't do much good. Since they appear in packs of 2d+1, surrounding a character is often a real possibility.

Last edited by phiwum; 11-30-2021 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 12-01-2021, 12:19 PM   #22
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Less than one hex monster

I prefer to stick with a general understanding that sub-hex-sized foes do not follow standard rules for stacking and entering an opponent's hex, implying that two or more can be on a foe at the same time. I'm not aware of any examples where such a creature is described as having some specific limit on stacking, so the implication is that dragonette's, etc. could act like swarms if there were enough of them. Anyway, I personally wouldn't make an exception for a particular creature just because it is dangerous. That seems a bit 'meta' to me - either you are small and can freely move in and out of occupied hexes or you are not. The fact that you are good at killing people is neither here nor there.
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Old 12-01-2021, 03:17 PM   #23
phiwum
 
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Default Re: Less than one hex monster

Your criticism, Lars, that rules based on the danger a monster poses rather than the size are unprincipled is fair, I suppose. But in practice, there's always enough wiggle room to justify such "unprincipled" decisions. The fact is, I've seen real life hawks cooperate, but never attack the same prey at once. To be sure, this has a lot to do with the relative size of the prey, but it can also do with how they attack. So, I'm okay with using reasoning about the danger posed by a monster to figure into my decisions about how it attacks.

And I do disagree that there are just two sizes, subhex and hex sized. A rat is different than a dragonet and I think there must be some maximum limit to how many of each can attack at once. I wouldn't allow all 20 rats in an encounter to be in a single hex, just because I don't think they could all reasonably attack a single figure like that. And in deciding how many could attack at once, I absolutely do reason about the amount of damage I'd like a "nuisance" critter to do. Similar considerations play a role in settling questions about dragonets and blood hawks.

So, I s'pose I am unprincipled in this respect. The size of the critter tells me only so much and I do have ideas for how to use a critter, so where there is leeway to interpret the critter's attack (such as number per hex), I use it.
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Old 12-01-2021, 03:32 PM   #24
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Less than one hex monster

My stacking suggestion at https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#Weight is
A hex can comfortably hold up to 1.0 "hex worth" of critters. So a dozen rats can occupy one hex without crowding.
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Old 12-01-2021, 04:42 PM   #25
Oneiros
 
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Default Re: Less than one hex monster

I’m doing the solo Red Crypt adventure. It provides basic rules for rats and bats, and also limits them to 2 per hex. It wasn’t until after my first rat encounter that I looked back at the ITL entry for them, even though I had some uncertainty when running the encounter.

Things that stand out from those rules:
  1. Rats must be in your hex to attack you.
  2. You can use a 50/50 die roll to determine if they hit you. (Note this is only a recommendation for speed; it’s not the “standard” as someone stated up thread. You could use regular rolls and even score crits for the rats.)
  3. Damage scored by the rats is cumulative within a round, and can overcome armor this way (a point missed by a couple posters.)
The thing that strikes me about points 1 and 2 is there is no mention of the rats in your hex being considered to be in HTH. Otherwise they’d have a 14 adjDex for the rear hex bonus HTH gives you, and you couldn’t use the 50/50 roll.

From a logical perspective, they’d have to be in HTH, as they’d need to be literally on you to attack, unless you’re just sticking out your fingers for them to bite. Either way, the PC is not in HTH, per the rules for smaller creatures engaging large figures in HTH per ITL pg 117.

So I guess my final ruling would be creatures so small as to be unable to attack from adjacent hexes simply use the regular rules for attacks, and do not get any of the advantages or disadvantages of the HTH rules.

As far as the number that can attack, I’d say it’s a factor of the creatures size compared to the target. A third the size? 3 can attack the target. A quarter? Four. And so on, with an upper limit of 10, just for manageability’s sake.

Alternatively, creatures a tenth or less in size I’d consider creating some rules for swarms, treating them as a single creature, as others have suggested here.

Last edited by Oneiros; 12-01-2021 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 12-01-2021, 07:35 PM   #26
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Default Re: Less than one hex monster

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
My stacking suggestion at https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#Weight is
A hex can comfortably hold up to 1.0 "hex worth" of critters. So a dozen rats can occupy one hex without crowding.
Henry,
How would this impact HTH? If a man (size 1.0 hexes in your terms) is in a hex, another man may still enter that hex to engage in HTH. But now the hex contains 2.0 quantity.

I understand that the 1.0 is without being in HTH. Running, fighting, casting all happens with only 1 person in the hex. So, this limit can be exceeded for HTH. What is the maximum number of combatants that should be allowed in a hex in HTH?

The way I read the rules, the answer is: no limit. If so, then while the rats are limited to 2 per hex while not in HTH, there can be any number of them on someone in HTH.

This maximum for HTH should be something to consider whether we are talking about rats or humans. At what point is the hex too full to allow any more?
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Old 12-01-2021, 08:45 PM   #27
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Less than one hex monster

Do fallen bodies penalties pile up when there's too many people in one HTH hex?
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Old 12-01-2021, 09:28 PM   #28
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Default Re: Less than one hex monster

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Do fallen bodies penalties pile up when there's too many people in one HTH hex?
ITL 118 for reference.

I consider "fallen bodies" to be the dead or unconscious. If there are no dead, at what point do we have too many live bodies in a hex in HTH?

ITL 117 "When two figures are on the ground in HTH combat, any
other figure(s)
can move onto that hex and join the brawl,
using option (a) or (j). No die roll is required."

The rules just has this as open ended. That is, no limit. So, a hoard of 20 rates may only be 2 per hex, until one has entered into someone's hex, and at that point all 20 may join. Or at least with 20 humans this is true.

Unlimited it makes the rats too powerful. Limited to 2 rats in HTH makes them too weak and less rat-like.

I will get to the point. Henry, I like your "hex worth" rule, but think we need to add a modifier for HTH. Say x4. That is, in HTH combat the limit for a hex is 4 times what it normally should be. Or pick what ever modifier you think makes sense.

How many men in a brawl piled on top of each other does it stop making sense?
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Old 12-01-2021, 09:32 PM   #29
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Default Re: Less than one hex monster

ITL limits rats to 2 per hex (not HTH). Then if we say the HTH hex worth modifier is 4, it would mean 8 rats in the hex in HTH with each other, or 6 plus one human.

Or if you prefer a modifier of 6, then we can have 10 rats on top one human in HTH.

So, what HTH-hex-worth-modifier do you think is right?

(BTW, I prefer to stick with the ITL 2 rats per hex while not in HTH, since clearly documented)
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Old 12-02-2021, 09:13 AM   #30
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Less than one hex monster

I think there are different issues:

* How many small figures can operate normally (without interfering with each other, not HTH) in the same hex?

* How many figures can engage each other in HTH (RAW no limit, and if you add a limit, that starts to create weird issues, not that a giant HTH pile isn't also weird).

* How many rat attacks can combine against the armor of one target (too high or too low can be problems...)?

What if the answer to that last one were that any number could combine, but there were a maximum amount of rat damage one figure can take per turn? That means you could get swarmed by countless rats, and they'd tend to find places to bite you around your armor, but you'd still take several turns to collapse to that, if the max damage per turn were 1 or 2?
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