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Old 08-12-2012, 01:08 PM   #51
roguebfl
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Default Re: Do allies earn CP?

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
Box on the bottom of B26:
"If a poor PC becomes wealthy, the GM should require the player to “buy off” the disadvantage with character points."
True, but your networth isn't what defines you as wealthy, it's social advantages that keep your networth at that level that makes you wealthy.

If you get a Sports car and somethign happens to it. If you social connection are such that you would beable to replace it sports car with no hardship they your wealthy, if you you only able to replace it with a used compact then you're not wealthy dispite have an expensive car
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Old 08-12-2012, 01:26 PM   #52
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Default Re: Do allies earn CP?

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
Box on the bottom of B26:
"If a poor PC becomes wealthy, the GM should require the player to “buy off” the disadvantage with character points."
"If a poor PC becomes wealthy", not "if a poor PC gets a temporary windfall and wastes it all on ale and ladies of negotiable affection (or even magic swords and armor)".
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Old 08-12-2012, 01:28 PM   #53
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Default Re: Do allies earn CP?

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The entire quoted section says, repeatedly, and in several different ways, that two NPCs can be "allied" but not Allies.
No it doesn't.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:46 PM   #54
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Default Re: Do allies earn CP?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
"If a poor PC becomes wealthy", not "if a poor PC gets a temporary windfall and wastes it all on ale and ladies of negotiable affection (or even magic swords and armor)".
If you waste your money on ale and ladies, you don't have it anymore and you're poor again, so that's fine. If you buy magic swords and armor, those are almost as good as money--they're assets that make you worth a lot more than your starting wealth would indicate. I'm not sure what "if a poor PC becomes wealthy" is supposed to mean other than "if you acquire loot/cash/gear worth significantly more than your starting wealth."
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:57 PM   #55
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Default Re: Do allies earn CP?

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
If you waste your money on ale and ladies, you don't have it anymore and you're poor again, so that's fine. If you buy magic swords and armor, those are almost as good as money--they're assets that make you worth a lot more than your starting wealth would indicate. I'm not sure what "if a poor PC becomes wealthy" is supposed to mean other than "if you acquire loot/cash/gear worth significantly more than your starting wealth."
Sorry no so

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdicely
Given the effects of Wealth, I think its best to treat it as a social advantage, so that finding money, while it justifies buying the appropriate wealth level, does not mandate it. This also reduces the need to closely track the present value of all of each characters assets to see if they "must" go up or down a Wealth level.
That's exactly what the rules are attempting to say. Wealth is only tied to what you own – cash, property, etc. – when you create your character at the start of the game. That's a convenient abstraction, not the definition of the Wealth advantage. As the rules state clearly, "The precise meaning of each wealth level in a particular game world will be defined in the associated worldbook."

Most of what Wealth does has nothing to do with what you own. In play, Wealth is a measure of social connectedness. It determines what jobs you can get and what Status level you can either support or fake. For instance, the 30 points for Very Wealthy buys you the social contacts needed to score a job that earns you 20 times as much as average, and means that you have easy social access to individuals with up to Status 3 (CEOs, mayors, etc.).

A modern-day PC whose wealth level is Average and who makes a big score for $2 million doesn't have to pay 50 points for Filthy Rich. The cash gives him an in-game excuse to do that if he wants to, as it lets him buy his way into a position where he's given cushy patronage "jobs" that pay 100 times what most of us earn, at which he hobnobs with senators and congressmen (Status 4). However, he could also spend it all on hookers and blow – or, as a PC, on armor, vehicles, weapons, etc. – and not spend a single point.
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:21 PM   #56
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Default Re: Do allies earn CP?

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
If you waste your money on ale and ladies, you don't have it anymore and you're poor again, so that's fine. If you buy magic swords and armor, those are almost as good as money--they're assets that make you worth a lot more than your starting wealth would indicate. I'm not sure what "if a poor PC becomes wealthy" is supposed to mean other than "if you acquire loot/cash/gear worth significantly more than your starting wealth."
Not really.

A magic sword is valuable, certainly. But it only works as a magic sword, or a financial asset. Never both. If you sell the magic sword, it stops being yours. If you offer it as collateral for a loan, the lender is going to be hanging on to it in the meanwhile, not you.

Being wealthy is very much about being able to sustain your wealth level, not just your ability to have stuff.
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:58 PM   #57
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Sorry no so
Thanks, that's a really useful quote. So Wealth really is more about having a good job or the connections that allow you to make money.

I'm just having trouble understanding when the GM would decide that you've become wealthy enough that you have to buy off a poverty disadvantage. If you're an adventurer with Poor on your character sheet, for example, but every week you make as much money looting dungeons as a person in your world with Wealth, then should you have to pay off Wealth because you now have a good source of income? If it's not about your existing assets, but rather potential assets, then how does one measure whether a PC has a higher Wealth level than he or she had previously?
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:34 PM   #58
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Default Re: Do allies earn CP?

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
Thanks, that's a really useful quote. So Wealth really is more about having a good job or the connections that allow you to make money.

I'm just having trouble understanding when the GM would decide that you've become wealthy enough that you have to buy off a poverty disadvantage. If you're an adventurer with Poor on your character sheet, for example, but every week you make as much money looting dungeons as a person in your world with Wealth, then should you have to pay off Wealth because you now have a good source of income? If it's not about your existing assets, but rather potential assets, then how does one measure whether a PC has a higher Wealth level than he or she had previously?
When they put the effort into turns that cash into building social connections as well as paying the right Cost of Living status level

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Do remember what Wealth is: a rating of off-screen holdings, credit rating, and business connections. At low Wealth, you lack the social network and assets to be offered good jobs, high-yield investment opportunities, large loans, etc. At high Wealth, you have the connections to get cushy postings, invitations to high-Status events, and so forth. In concrete terms, read p. B517 this way:
  • Poor: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status -2 people and get jobs that pay 1/5 of the norm for your TL.
  • Struggling: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status -1 people and get jobs that pay 1/2 of the norm for your TL.
  • Average: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 0 people and get jobs that pay the norm for your TL.
  • Comfortable: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 1 people and get jobs that pay 2 times the norm for your TL.
  • Wealthy: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 2 people and get jobs that pay 5 times the norm for your TL.
  • Very Wealthy: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 3 people and get jobs that pay 20 times the norm for your TL.
  • Filthy Rich: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 4 people and get jobs that pay 100 times the norm for your TL.
  • Multimillionaire 1: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 5 people and get jobs that pay 1,000 times the norm for your TL.
  • Multimillionaire 2: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 6 people and get jobs that pay 10,000 times the norm for your TL.
  • Multimillionaire 3: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 7 people and get jobs that pay 100,000 times the norm for your TL.
  • Multimillionaire 4: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 8 people and get jobs that pay 1,000,000 times the norm for your TL.
These effects are amplified in a number of places. Notably, even when PCs with high Wealth aren't employed, they net more cash from off-screen investments (Independent Income, p. B26). Sometimes, great Wealth even translates into real Status and not just schmoozing rights (Wealth and Status, p. B26). And it also immunizes you somewhat against temptation, since Greed (p. B137) doesn't affect you as much if the sum is small relative to your own wealth.

Note that I've said a lot so far without mentioning starting money at all. That's because starting money is a small part of what Wealth is about. The GM might even give away equipment to go with skills and background story elements – the thief gets lockpicks, a grapnel, a few daggers, etc. for free; the knight starts with armor and a sword; and so on. I've done this and been in campaigns where it was done. It changes very little. Especially in a game focused on mercenaries or dungeon delvers, the first big score will render differences in starting cash largely irrelevant anyway.

Thus, letting rich PCs bankroll poorer ones has little long-term impact on the campaign. It won't help the poorer PCs score better jobs in their downtime, get them into the right social situations for social engineering, or grant them free Status. It won't insulate poorer PCs with Greed from their demons. And it won't let poorer PCs justify any better return on Independent Income. It just means better gear . . . and gear that doesn't cost points has no plot immunity at all. No points means no obligation on the GM's part not to break, confiscate, or steal the gear – or not to have it prove cursed, faulty, radioactive, stolen, etc.
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Old 08-12-2012, 10:49 PM   #59
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Default Re: Do allies earn CP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
Thanks, that's a really useful quote. So Wealth really is more about having a good job or the connections that allow you to make money.

I'm just having trouble understanding when the GM would decide that you've become wealthy enough that you have to buy off a poverty disadvantage. If you're an adventurer with Poor on your character sheet, for example, but every week you make as much money looting dungeons as a person in your world with Wealth, then should you have to pay off Wealth because you now have a good source of income? If it's not about your existing assets, but rather potential assets, then how does one measure whether a PC has a higher Wealth level than he or she had previously?
It's two things, I think. First of all, how long could that PC survive without dungeon delving? How many months of Cost of Living could he pay with his liquid assets? (You know, without selling his magic sword.)

The second question is: How long would it take him to get back in the black from 0? Suppose he lost everything; Bad bets, bad investments, bad booze, whatever. What would he have to do in order to re-achieve his previous level of cash flow? How long would it take him?

Those are the things I would look at when changing a character's wealth level.

Last edited by knarf; 08-12-2012 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:17 PM   #60
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Default Re: Do allies earn CP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
Thanks, that's a really useful quote. So Wealth really is more about having a good job or the connections that allow you to make money.

I'm just having trouble understanding when the GM would decide that you've become wealthy enough that you have to buy off a poverty disadvantage. If you're an adventurer with Poor on your character sheet, for example, but every week you make as much money looting dungeons as a person in your world with Wealth, then should you have to pay off Wealth because you now have a good source of income? If it's not about your existing assets, but rather potential assets, then how does one measure whether a PC has a higher Wealth level than he or she had previously?
Dungeon Fantasy, which specifically revolves around adventurers earning a living by killing monsters and looting their stuff, addresses this issue by making Wealth (ie, the social connections that allow a character to accumulate and hold on to money) a fractional multiplier for all the loot sold. An Average Wealth character receives 40% of the normal market value for anything he sells, while Struggling earns 20% and Comfortable 60%. So the character's current Wealth level (the advantage, not his cash balance) has a direct impact on in-game monetary awards.
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