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Old 11-07-2010, 04:57 AM   #1
Anders
 
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Default TL 1+n: A world with cheap bronze

How far could a society proceed before the limitations of bronze begin to show. Bronze may be superior to iron, but is it superior to steel? Assuming bronze is as cheap as iron, what are the limits?
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Old 11-07-2010, 06:20 AM   #2
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Default Re: TL 1+n: A world with cheap bronze

IMO, you could reach TL4 technology easily with bronze instead of steel, assuming you could have it as cheap as iron/steel.
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Old 11-07-2010, 06:29 AM   #3
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Default Re: TL 1+n: A world with cheap bronze

Bronze is supposedly better at absorbing the blast of gunpowder than iron, which made it useful for TL4 and TL 5 cannon. I daresay that you could possibly hit TL 5 with cheap bronze, and possibly late-TL 6/early-TL 7 - it all depends on whether bronze is better than steel for "ironclads", tanks, and WWII battleship hulls.

Cheap bronze commonly translates into tin being more plentiful, or at least easier to find closer to the copper. Not sure how this would affect the economy, though.
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Old 11-07-2010, 07:38 AM   #4
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Default Re: TL 1+n: A world with cheap bronze

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Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
How far could a society proceed before the limitations of bronze begin to show. Bronze may be superior to iron, but is it superior to steel?
Depends on the steel alloy. And the bronze alloy. And what property you want it to be superior in. Up until TL5 blast furnaces and understanding of the chemistry of iron alloys, probably yes most of the time. There's a reason steampunk gearing is made of brass....

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Assuming bronze is as cheap as iron, what are the limits?
I don't think there are any. There are advanced bronze alloys too (look particularly at aluminium bronzes), and in any case other than cost the only serious difference is strength to weight ratio - bronze instead of steel mostly just means metal stuff where the strength is really critical (a fairly rare constraint on actual technology) is somewhat heavier. Which is pretty much irrelevant by comparision to steel, since you mostly don't use *steel* where weight it really critical either - you use aluminium or titanium or magnesium or beryllium....

To be honest, I think people greatly overestimate the importance of materials to advancing TLs. Everything has a substitute - presumably at least slightly inferior in one parameter or we'd be using it instead in the first place, but seldom so much worse it can't be made to work. And since very often the inferiority *is* cost, when you knock that one out....
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Old 11-07-2010, 08:08 AM   #5
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Default Re: TL 1+n: A world with cheap bronze

The only thing I can really think of is applications where ferromagnetism is essential.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:43 AM   #6
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Default Re: TL 1+n: A world with cheap bronze

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Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
The only thing I can really think of is applications where ferromagnetism is essential.
So start alloying copper and cobalt? I'm pretty sure you can alloy enough cobalt into a bronze to make it ferromagnetic.
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Old 11-07-2010, 10:57 AM   #7
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Default Re: TL 1+n: A world with cheap bronze

I think this depends a lot on time factor. Some of the things developed in our tech depend on steel, and an alternate like bronze would work but it would not be as intuitive. You would eventually get the same results, but with much more trial & error, hence each step of tech (involved with this small aspect) would take longer to develop.

Things likes springs, small tools, files, and such would be hell with bronze- but then, there is a substitute somewhere, as mentioned above. I don't know what, because in our world it was a no-brainer to use steel, but I do use spark-proof bronze tools at work from time to time.
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Old 11-07-2010, 11:27 AM   #8
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Default Re: TL 1+n: A world with cheap bronze

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Originally Posted by Jerron View Post
I think this depends a lot on time factor. Some of the things developed in our tech depend on steel, and an alternate like bronze would work but it would not be as intuitive. You would eventually get the same results, but with much more trial & error, hence each step of tech (involved with this small aspect) would take longer to develop.

Things likes springs, small tools, files, and such would be hell with bronze- but then, there is a substitute somewhere, as mentioned above. I don't know what, because in our world it was a no-brainer to use steel, but I do use spark-proof bronze tools at work from time to time.
Eh? Bronze, especially phosphor bronze, has been prized for corrosion-resistant springs for ages, and the castability of bronze makes many small tools quite simple.

And while some things might not be as simple using bronze, rather than steel, other things would be much simpler. Overall, the development time depends on people, not materials, and I wouldn't change it for anything short of a change as drastic as removing eighty percent of the metals from the world.
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Old 11-07-2010, 11:43 AM   #9
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Default Re: TL 1+n: A world with cheap bronze

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post

To be honest, I think people greatly overestimate the importance of materials to advancing TLs.
I suspect you mean _specific_ materials. A general state of art in materials sciences is an important limiting factor in technological advance.

Lack of one material won't keep you from advancing a TL but you do need to have invented/developed the substitutes.
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