Duplication questions; upgrading capabilities

[kirbwarrior]

A character idea I've recently come up with uses Duplication. But I'm not quite sure how to go about it right, so I have a few questions;

Is 100% fair to add onto Construct so I have all the advantages of both (most importantly, there isn't a 'real' me, so either dupe can recreate the other one)?

Do you have to touch to merge? Is this also true of Construct? If so, what would the price be to get rid of this (is it just Ranged)? Would Ranged allow me to create dupes at a distance?

Signature Gear is a 100% enhancement, but would Can Carry Objects also work? Since Extra Heavy is worth +150%, do I have to combine these together?

Reduced time can make it a free action, if I put Reflexive on it, can I 'dodge' by splitting in two? Side note, can I do the same for Alternate Form, Morph, and other powers that could reasonably 'dodge' by using them?

Do I put Reduced Cost on Construct or Duplication itself to make Construct free?

I'm pretty sure I use Alternate Form with Uncontrollable Trigger (Duplication) for changing into two different people. Do I need to do this if only cosmetic changes happen? If only a couple mental traits do (as per Split Personality)? If other features change (such as sex, SM, or handedness)?

I can use Extra Lives to replace lost Dupes. What if I'm using one of the limitations on Extra Life, especially Copy?

Lastly, what is a fair limitation that I have to split my traits among the dupes (and also if I have to choose ahead of time how it is done)? One dupe is a fighting master, the other a politician, and combine their abilities when combined, as an example.

Thank you ahead of time.

(One last cute note, linking Morph with Duplication could do silly things like run around as a wolf and have a hawk fly out of me to look around)

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Is 100% fair to add onto Construct so I have all the advantages of both (most importantly, there isn't a 'real' me, so either dupe can recreate the other one)?

I was just thinking about this recently, to model a character from Worm. Came to the conclusion that if I didn't call it Unkillable x3 with Achilles' Heel: All Other Copies Currently Dead -X% (where X is a GM call that depends on how many copies you can make, how hard it is to kill them, etc) then I'd just feel dirty.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Do you have to touch to merge? Is this also true of Construct? If so, what would the price be to get rid of this (is it just Ranged)? Would Ranged allow me to create dupes at a distance?

I don't see why not, on all counts.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Signature Gear is a 100% enhancement, but would Can Carry Objects also work? Since Extra Heavy is worth +150%, do I have to combine these together?

Not sure I understand the question. Carry Objects when, into a merge and then back out again?

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Reduced time can make it a free action, if I put Reflexive on it, can I 'dodge' by splitting in two? Side note, can I do the same for Alternate Form, Morph, and other powers that could reasonably 'dodge' by using them?

Short answer: Yeah. Power Block and Power Dodge are on 4e Supers p 109.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Do I put Reduced Cost on Construct or Duplication itself to make Construct free?

I'd say the whole Advantage, as it's not really costing you FP otherwise.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I'm pretty sure I use Alternate Form with Uncontrollable Trigger (Duplication) for changing into two different people. Do I need to do this if only cosmetic changes happen? If only a couple mental traits do (as per Split Personality)? If other features change (such as sex, SM, or handedness)?

If cosmetic changes that render you unrecognizable or changes to Advantages, Disadvantages, etc happen, that's very useful and takes Alternate Form or Morph. If you become another gender but otherwise look the same that's Hermaphromorph w/ Uncontrollable Trigger, and if you change SM but otherwise look the same that's either an AF w/ Gigantism or Dwarfism if you're building it as an AF already anyway, or possibly Growth or Shrinking w/ Uncontrollable Trigger (with a small "element of surprise" UB in settings in which such powers are unknown and people would think you had to be your own fraternal or malformed twin even in the face of strong evidence to the contrary). Handedness is a feature, but I could see arguments for charging a Perk if you can change it to assist a disguise, cover for an injury, etc.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Is 100% fair to add onto Construct so I have all the advantages of both (most importantly, there isn't a 'real' me, so either dupe can recreate the other one)?

Construct makes it so there is ALWAYS a real you. Normally "you" are replaced by (Duplication level+1) "Dupes" and there is no "real you" until you merge. With Construct, the real "you" never goes anywhere, and when you duplicate you get "you" plus (Duplication Level) Constructs.

As Dupes are copies of you, I would allow any Dupe to make more Dupes, as long as the total number didn't exceed your Duplication level.

If you want the "Dupes" to all be "you" like unmodified Duplication, but also Disposable like constructs (so if any on survives, you're still good to go after you rest and replace your dupes), then I think you're looking at a pile of Cosmic to make that happen.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Do you have to touch to merge? Is this also true of Construct? If so, what would the price be to get rid of this (is it just Ranged)? Would Ranged allow me to create dupes at a distance?

I've always assumed you need to touch to re-merge, but it is not actually explicit in the description, so it's a GM call really. Personally I would rule that you could use ranged in this way.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Signature Gear is a 100% enhancement, but would Can Carry Objects also work? Since Extra Heavy is worth +150%, do I have to combine these together?

The Sig Gear Special Enhancement is a special case that trumps Can Carry Objects in my opinion. That said, I would allow Can Carry Objects on Duplication with the Sig Gear Enhancement as a prerequisite.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Reduced time can make it a free action, if I put Reflexive on it, can I 'dodge' by splitting in two? Side note, can I do the same for Alternate Form, Morph, and other powers that could reasonably 'dodge' by using them?

As mentioned before, this sounds like a valid power dodge for unmodified Duplication. I don't think I'd allow it for constructs or Duplication enhanced with Ranged, as it implies the dupes are created rather than "split off" (this is purely thematic, but if your Dupe appears 10 yards away, you're not shifting position as the crawl out of you or splits off)

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Do I put Reduced Cost on Construct or Duplication itself to make Construct free?

Not on construct directly by RAW. You can put limitations on enhancements as an optional rule, but you cannot enhance enhancements. You would have to apply the Reduced Fatigue Cost to your Duplication advantage itself.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I'm pretty sure I use Alternate Form with Uncontrollable Trigger (Duplication) for changing into two different people. Do I need to do this if only cosmetic changes happen? If only a couple mental traits do (as per Split Personality)? If other features change (such as sex, SM, or handedness)?

Not sure on this one... Wouldn't Uncontrollable Trigger (Duplication) make all your dupes change, not just the new one? I think you need a link instead.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I can use Extra Lives to replace lost Dupes. What if I'm using one of the limitations on Extra Life, especially Copy?

Sure, I don't see why not. You would be subject to Copy's limitations... Meaning you actually have to have a body on support waiting to be integrated.. and that it could be potentially tampered with or stolen etc.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Lastly, what is a fair limitation that I have to split my traits among the dupes (and also if I have to choose ahead of time how it is done)? One dupe is a fighting master, the other a politician, and combine their abilities when combined, as an example.

I would allow this as a variation on "Shared Resources", but rather than splitting up HP and FP, you split up the skill list. For that to work fairly though, no two dupes could share a skill. (I might be convinced that they could share skills with more than 1 pt in them by splitting the points, but I'd have to give it some thought.)

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

Short answer: Yeah. Power Block and Power Dodge are on 4e Supers p 109.

Oh, thank you, I didn't know that was there.

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

If cosmetic changes that render you unrecognizable or changes to Advantages, Disadvantages, etc happen, that's very useful and takes Alternate Form or Morph. If you become another gender but otherwise look the same that's Hermaphromorph w/ Uncontrollable Trigger, and if you change SM but otherwise look the same that's either an AF w/ Gigantism or Dwarfism if you're building it as an AF already anyway, or possibly Growth or Shrinking w/ Uncontrollable Trigger (with a small "element of surprise" UB in settings in which such powers are unknown and people would think you had to be your own fraternal or malformed twin even in the face of strong evidence to the contrary). Handedness is a feature, but I could see arguments for charging a Perk if you can change it to assist a disguise, cover for an injury, etc.

That all makes sense, it's just too bad that switching around a couple things isn't a feature (but if it was, where would the line be?)

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

If you want the "Dupes" to all be "you" like unmodified Duplication, but also Disposable like constructs (so if any on survives, you're still good to go after you rest and replace your dupes), then I think you're looking at a pile of Cosmic to make that happen.

Which is why I was thinking it would be about 100%; it's the price of buying two dupes, one with construct, but instead of getting three in total, you have a second one with all the benefits.

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I've always assumed you need to touch to re-merge, but it is not actually explicit in the description, so it's a GM call really. Personally I would rule that you could use ranged in this way.

Do you need Ranged to add Long Range? I'd rather just use that if possible.

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

The Sig Gear Special Enhancement is a special case that trumps Can Carry Objects in my opinion. That said, I would allow Can Carry Objects on Duplication with the Sig Gear Enhancement as a prerequisite.

That makes sense, and sounds fair.

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Not sure on this one... Wouldn't Uncontrollable Trigger (Duplication) make all your dupes change, not just the new one? I think you need a link instead.

It sounds more disadvantageous than good. I'd prefer Trigger, but you make a good point. Maybe Only in one body -40%?

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Sure, I don't see why not. You would be subject to Copy's limitations... Meaning you actually have to have a body on support waiting to be integrated.. and that it could be potentially tampered with or stolen etc.

Would they also have the 'old' character sheet?

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I would allow this as a variation on "Shared Resources", but rather than splitting up HP and FP, you split up the skill list. For that to work fairly though, no two dupes could share a skill. (I might be convinced that they could share skills with more than 1 pt in them by splitting the points, but I'd have to give it some thought.)

What if it is advantages? Disadvantages? Attributes (either points in them or totals)?

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

That all makes sense, it's just too bad that switching around a couple things isn't a feature (but if it was, where would the line be?)

The line would be where switching those things becomes an advantage. Looking one "normal" way all the time is no more advantageous than looking another "normal" way all the time, for example, but being able to change from one "normal" appearance to another is a game advantage because you could eg: run around the corner while being chased by the cops, change appearance, then point and shout, "He went that-a-way!"

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Do you need Ranged to add Long Range? I'd rather just use that if possible.

Long Range only affects range modifiers and doesn't actually impact the range of an ability. As there are no skill rolls, I don't see that long range would have any affect.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

It sounds more disadvantageous than good. I'd prefer Trigger, but you make a good point. Maybe Only in one body -40%?

Judgement call... I don't think I'd give more than -20% though.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Would they also have the 'old' character sheet?

They would I suppose.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

What if it is advantages? Disadvantages? Attributes (either points in them or totals)?

For anything but disadvantages, I would just say you can define the "resources" involved. If it's more slight in scale, drop the limitation value, if it's extreme, increase it.

But if you can split up your Disadvantages, that's a big ol Enhancement.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

The line would be where switching those things becomes an advantage. Looking one "normal" way all the time is no more advantageous than looking another "normal" way all the time, for example, but being able to change from one "normal" appearance to another is a game advantage because you could eg: run around the corner while being chased by the cops, change appearance, then point and shout, "He went that-a-way!"

Absolutely true. Thanks.

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Long Range only affects range modifiers and doesn't actually impact the range of an ability. As there are no skill rolls, I don't see that long range would have any affect.

Long Range with Ranged doesn't actually get rid of limits, only modifiers, you are correct. Which means I would actually have to 'attack' somewhere to dupe there. Weird.

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Judgement call... I don't think I'd give more than -20% though.

On top of an Uncontrollable Trigger (maybe -10%?) it seems fair.

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

For anything but disadvantages, I would just say you can define the "resources" involved. If it's more slight in scale, drop the limitation value, if it's extreme, increase it.

But if you can split up your Disadvantages, that's a big ol Enhancement.

It almost sounds like it would come out to a wash if it applied to everything then. The idea that sparked this was taking two (say) 100pt dupes that when combined are a 200pt character. Or a slime that spreads parts of itself around (even metaphysical parts).

[the_matrix_walker]

"Everything" Is a toughy... Normally shared resources divides HP and FP from their value, not how much they've been improved, so splitting everything would mean your IQ 14 guy splits into two IQ 7 guys... so you may want to be a bit more specific!

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Long Range with Ranged doesn't actually get rid of limits, only modifiers, you are correct. Which means I would actually have to 'attack' somewhere to dupe there. Weird.

Slap on Cosmic: No Roll to Hit +100% if you want to get rid of that.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

"Everything" Is a toughy... Normally shared resources divides HP and FP from their value, not how much they've been improved, so splitting everything would mean your IQ 14 guy splits into two IQ 7 guys... so you may want to be a bit more specific!

I think the best way to cover 'everything' is to cover point values; IQ 14 [80] becomes IQ 12 [40], or maybe 11 and 13. Since ST makes more sense that way (or at least taking the square root), it seems fair to apply it the same way amongst the other attributes.