Weapons expertise for swords

[phiwum]

I notice there's an odd disadvantage for beginning sword users. Weapons expertise "does not include fencing weapons" (ITL 41). Since expertise requires DX 12 and IQ 11, the highest ST for a beginning weapons expert is 9, ignoring odd exceptions to the 32 point character. Hence, one cannot create a 32pt. character with sword expertise, though he can create an Ax/Mace expert or Polearm expert.

Now, I know some people don't want starting characters to be experts, but that's another matter. The question is whether this disadvantage for the sword user makes sense.

On the one hand, it seems a bit odd. A sword expert using a rapier wouldn't be as good as the fencer, though as he adds ST, he becomes better. Why should Polearm users and Ax/mace users have a path to expertise for a starting character, but Sword users either wait until later and spend 1500XP to gain expertise or start with Fencer, which limits their damage significantly?

On the other hand, Sword users already have a significant advantage over Ax/mace schmucks. They get Dagger for free. So, maybe it's okay to cheat them when it comes to expertise.

I hadn't really thought about this issue and I don't think we've discussed it here. Do y'all use the rule that sword expertise does not apply to sabers or rapiers?

Just curious.

[Axly Suregrip]

Yes, I stick with the rules as I understand them. Fencing talent is slightly better than Weapon Expert, and as you noted sword are generally better than axes, so I am okay this barrier between Fencing swords and Weapon Expert swords.

Things like this in this game, having these differences (sword vs axe; fencing sword vs non-fencing, etc), makes it more interesting for me.

[hcobb]

Legacy's Dwarven advantage in Ax/Mace is that these weapons are heavier and cheaper than swords. The price difference for the base weapon isn't much but makes a big dent in the starting budget for very fine weapons.
An additional factor is that Dwarves make better use of the Miner’s pick as a tool, so it's useful to have the weapon talent.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Legacy's Dwarven advantage in Ax/Mace is that these weapons are heavier and cheaper than swords. The price difference for the base weapon isn't much but makes a big dent in the starting budget for very fine weapons.

I agree. Having that fine axe when another beginning character cannot afford a fine sword does make a difference.

[Shostak]

TFT can be peculiarly specific in some cases, and overly broad in others. Fencing is specific in that it is limited to only small set of swords and knives, while Weapon Expertise (Sword) is much broader—indeed it is transferable to all swords from the short sword to the great sword, which implies that they require essentially identical training and technique.

A better approach would be to have Weapon Expertise broken into separate 1-point talents, such as Defensive Attack (attacks against the Expert are made at -1DX)and Shrewd Attack (Expert accepts a DX penalty to do an extra die of damage).

[hcobb]

Twoaxe, Half-dwarf, age 20
ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11, MA 10
Talents include: Axe/Mace Expertise, Naturalist, Tracking, Two Weapons, Woodsman
Language: Common
Weapon: 2 very fine hatchets (1d+3)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-3)

Can't be a full dwarf, due to the nerfing in Legacy.

[Bill_in_IN]

In my game, a sword is a sword whether it is considered a fencing sword or not. The type of sword makes no difference to the base Sword Talent and Sword Expertise isn't as powerful as Fencer talent.

Fencer talent is limited to fencing swords but the PC gets the added benefit of Two Weapons talent. Therefore. Fencer Talents are more powerful.

So, I allow a beginning PC the have Sword Weapons Expertise and have its benefits apply to a rapier or saber. It eliminates this weird distinction that phiwum pointed out and doesn't disrupt the balance of the TFT universe. PCs will move up to larger swords as they gain ST anyway.

If the wielder of larger swords wants to be similar to a Fencer (there are some differences), they have to sink 3 IQ into Two Weapons talent.

There is a PC that just learned Master Fencer and his tank Shield Expert learned Axe/Mace Expertise (no Two Weapons talent). Due to their talents, they both have similar survive-ability. However, unless the Fencer goes for a thrust attack, the Axe/Mace Expert is dealing out more average damage.

When I was re-learning TFT (Legacy version from Classic), I created a PC with Sword Expertise and Two Weapons talents as a Fencer alternative. He functioned much like a fencer without all of the Fencer advantages. He now wields two short swords. He was close to death several times. He and his group are now among NPCs.

I created several 4 man squads, ran them through arena battles and death tests to check out character progression. Then they all became NPCs in my game.

[Shostak]

If there is to be a special talent for fencers that gives abilities that Weapon Expertise doesn't, it might be nice for a special expert talent for those who wield two-handed weapons to make up for the fact that by opting for a larger weapon they stab themselves in the foot, so to speak, since they can't benefit form Shield Expertise.

[JimmyPlenty]

Axes are considered easier to use than swords. So that would solve that issue except that polearms are considered harder to learn than swords. So there is still an issue. (polearm expertise at IQ 12, perhaps?)

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by JimmyPlenty

Axes are considered easier to use than swords. So that would solve that issue except that polearms are considered harder to learn than swords. So there is still an issue. (polearm expertise at IQ 12, perhaps?)

TFT’s talent costs suggest that axes, swords, and polearms all have equivalent difficulties.