Cards you want to see - Page 5

Sam Mitschke · 11-26-2021, 10:56 AM

@beetle496
Thank you for the apology and positive response. I'm much more eager to explore these ideas when I'm not starting on the back foot.

Comparing the values for the turreted light rocket and micromissile to that of the light rockets is sort of like comparing apples and...purple.

The light rockets are "traditional" weapons that are, for the most part, similar to other weapons, and their idiosyncrasies stem from their one-shot and buy-one-get-one factors — there are enough other weapons with these elements to extrapolate how we valued them.

The turreted light rocket/micro-missile are I PUT YOU OUT OF CONTROL NOW weapons (do your best Ivan Drago impersonation as you say that). The damage they deal and the defense they provide is icing on top of that primary function, and it's useful icing. The light rockets indeed provide 4 durability, but it's all in fixed locations which you must allocate before the game. The turret has less durability, but you can move it around in the heat of combat as needed.

This is a great example of the value of versatility and intangible factors that I mentioned earlier. You may not see the value for your car builds or play style, but that doesn't mean the value isn't present.

beetle496 · 11-26-2021, 07:02 PM

I concur that a turreted rocket has more RP value than 4x single rockets.

I also appreciate that the reveal of a concealed weapon to be a turreted rocket would be quite dramatic!

I don’t understand what you mean by moving durability around. Yes, weapon hp in crew area is more valuable than 2x hp on a facing. If crew area hp is something I am looking for, and I have a spare BP, are there not a few choices?

beetle496 · 11-26-2021, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

Not specifically 2BP as a flat value — I meant that paying double-CP is likely too expensive. My example just happened to use 1 and 2 CP.

I believe there is a 5 (!) CP crew card that gives an extra attack, and the attack is limited to a Hand Cannon. I have not yet played a large build, but I think that is too much opportunity cost for my tastes. But it is in the ball park.

Sam Mitschke · 11-26-2021, 08:13 PM

A turret takes damage just as a normal weapon, but it counts as equipped to all sides, so if you have no weapon on that side, the turret eats the damage. However, that can be used to your advantage. If you have a weapon you'd like to protect on the side that's taking damage, you can allocate the damage to the turret instead. It can take damage from one side on one attack, and then you can have it take damage from a different side on another attack. It's armor that has mildly-limited freedom to move around to any side of your car, as needed.

And the entire game is built around freedom of choice. That's the point! One item of the same cost isn't inherently stronger (or weaker) than another — just different in it's use, and therefore its value is skewed by your personal need/use for one item over another.

Magesmiley · 11-26-2021, 09:33 PM

Hmm, this thread seems to have drifted a bit.

Sam, first off, thank you for being active in the Car Wars forums. It is incredibly appreciated. If some of us come across a bit strong or argumentative, iI think that it's from a love of the game.

IMO, the comparison of Classic and 6E are a bit apples and oranges. They're good for different reasons. Those who love the strengths of Classic (such as simulation, campaigns, etc.), play Classic. If people just want a quick shoot-em up arena battle, 6E is a pretty strong choice. I like both, for different reasons.

The point of the turret as a damage sink is a good one. I overlooked that. :)

But back on topic...
I'm fairly certain that you've got a bunch of other items already mapped out. Hopefully suggestions are still acceptable:

Some other thoughts and ideas:

Since we already have tokens and cards for a number of things, it might make sense to have some weapons that can drop them. For example, some sort of a water jet that leaves a puddle, possibly with a larger ammo supply or DP to balance it against the oil jet. Or brink back the junk dropper to leave brush behind it. We've got the slab, how about something that drops barrels? It seems like it would be a good way to make further use of cards that we already have.

Some sort of handicap or flaw cards that cost negative points. Faulty targeting system, 2nd-hand power plant, retread tires, slipping transmission, etc. Essentially a way to reduce the total point cost of your cards by taking some sort of a significant penalty. For balance, the point cost your total is reduced by would be less than the cost of a corresponding positive item. For example, a second-hand power plant could reduce your PP value by a number of points and you would get another BP to work with (a -1 cost). Maybe a -2 for a No Gunner (driver only) card. Etc.

I was always a fan of the limpet mine for some reason. It could implemented as a sidearm, usable only by a pedestrian within the thickness of a turn key. Let it bypass armor and structure completely when applying damage. Having to walk up next to a car and stick it on is already a pretty huge risk for a crew member, so it might be a reasonable tradeoff for the risk.

Some sort of a gadget that would let you mount multiple turrets might be interesting.

Still thinking.

beetle496 · 11-27-2021, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magesmiley

Sam, first off, thank you for being active in the Car Wars forums. It is incredibly appreciated. If some of us come across a bit strong or argumentative, iI think that it's from a love of the game.

+1

Quote:

IMO, the comparison of Classic and 6E are a bit apples and oranges. They're good for different reasons. Those who love the strengths of Classic (such as simulation, campaigns, etc.), play Classic. If people just want a quick shoot-em up arena battle, 6E is a pretty strong choice. I like both, for different reasons.

I am less charitable wrt the strengths of CCW. I agree there is real value attached a system you know and enjoy. I have fond memories of cars v. cycle gangs and OTR trucks, and a one-off ‘James Bond style car’ down a mountain road pursued a helicopter. (And none of those scenarios are supported by 6e.) In the last years, the RP aspect was the central element of our play, and not any game mechanics. We never did convert characters to Gurps Autoduel, so I think 6e would have worked fine for our needs then.

Quote:

The point of the turret as a damage sink is a good one. I overlooked that.

Attaching value of the turreted guns as damage sink (4 durability) is rational. However, the turreted rockets are only 2 durability; but do they retain their durability after firing?

Quote:

Some sort of handicap or flaw cards that cost negative points…

I think I like this idea. It is a slippery slope though, because in most cases, one can plan and play as to negate the penalty. So now the card is just free BP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

A turret takes damage just as a normal weapon, but it counts as equipped to all sides, so if you have no weapon on that side, the turret eats the damage.

The turret can also be assigned damage when the Damage Deck indicates crew result, correct?

The turret card text reads “This is considered equipped to all firing arcs”. It never would have occurred to me that sentence was meant to apply for taking damage as well. Please poll your trusted play testers for their understanding. This is the kind of detail which I thinks warrants an errata or FAQ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496

I believe there is a 5 (!) CP crew card that gives an extra attack, and the attack is limited to a Hand Cannon… I think that is too much opportunity cost for my tastes.

I was thinking of Hyperion. So for 5CP, an extra 1.5 mean damage, side arc fire only. Compare to Max (also a 5CP Gunner) which adds a yellow die to each attack made by your crew, so an extra 1.67 mean damage, any firing arcs. Hyperion can still be the better choice for certain specific situations. For example, a car without side-mounted weapons; or if you have a spare CP for the Holographic Sight (Gear) but not a spare BP for Targeting Computer (Accessory).

Sam Mitschke · 11-27-2021, 08:59 AM

@Magesmiley
Thank YOU for saying that, and the only reason I'm hanging around is that I recognize and appreciate everyone's enthusiasm for the game, and y'all have made this a pleasant place to chat.

As far as suggestions go, that's fine! However, I'm not reading much more than names and concepts, and I'm actively ignoring suggested game mechanics. Not out of ego or anything, but rather:

1) The game system has some obvious ways to execute specific ideas — I don't want to steal ideas, but we're working with the same tools in a narrow creative band.
2) We're literally already working on a LOT of what's been suggested so far, though it may not be in the way suggested in these forums.
3) We will never be able to make everything that everyone wants in the current publishing/manufacturing/shipping, even if it's all great ideas.

So I'm happy to convey my thoughts on whether or not I believe a concept has merit (such as my cloud-shouting about bumper triggers), but if I *don't* give much feedback on something, there's a good chance we've already got something cooking. I have a LOT of cards already in my database that are just waiting for a product home.

To address some of the ideas you brought up:

I'm strongly opposed to multiple turrets as the game sits now — for very good reasons that bore out in early testing — but that opposition may vanish if we can implement another game mechanic/product release we're working on. The idea is there, but I can't really deep-dive further at this time.

Handicap cards have been in the discussion since before the damage deck was created, and (1) I like the idea, but (2) it's very easy to create unfair situations and remove fun from the table. They aren't a DON'T for us, but they are a big BE CAREFUL item.

Pedestrian items are cool, but are a very niche product. I have lists of possibilities, including mines similar to what you described, but we need to make sure the audience is there to make it worth publishing. We know for a fact that not everyone bought that expansion, so on-foot items are two levels of niche down from the primary market. Time will tell on that.

Sam Mitschke · 11-27-2021, 09:08 AM

@beetle496

Quote:

However, the turreted rockets are only 2 durability; but do they retain their durability after firing?

No. The card is turned face-down as though it was destroyed. ALL one-shot weapons are turned face-down and lose their durability after firing.

Quote:

The turret can also be assigned damage when the Damage Deck indicates crew result, correct?

This is very much incorrect. Crew results mean you must apply the damage to one of your crew members — you choose which (p23, 5th paragraph). The turret can only take damage on a "weapon" damage card result.

Quote:

The turret card text reads “This is considered equipped to all firing arcs”. It never would have occurred to me that sentence was meant to apply for taking damage as well. Please poll your trusted play testers for their understanding. This is the kind of detail which I thinks warrants an errata or FAQ.

We playtested it a lot. A few people had trouble with the idea until it was explained, but most did not. I do agree that it's a good FAQ candidate, just because it's weird...but we haven't really had many questions about that aspect.

43Supporter · 11-27-2021, 01:55 PM

Turrets: Back'n'th'day, no one used them -- they were too limited in what firepower they could carry; they took up weight and cost which could go to Armor, or heavier weapons; they forced players to cover *five* armor facing, not four, which reduced armor even more. If 6E makes Turrets viable....

JimTullis · 11-29-2021, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496

The turret card text reads “This is considered equipped to all firing arcs”. It never would have occurred to me that sentence was meant to apply for taking damage as well. Please poll your trusted play testers for their understanding. This is the kind of detail which I thinks warrants an errata or FAQ.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't need to be an errata.
I'd be all for seeing it in an FAQ.
I'D BE ALL FOR SEEING AN FAQ/ERRATA SHEET.

I'm not sure if it's because I've seen another rule like this somewhere else*, but my immediate read of the wording on turrets was "shoots in all arcs, takes hits from all arcs".

BUT, if anyone ever reads any rule and it doesn't immediately read the same way for them as for others then I say put it in an faq or teaching video.

* (I'm old, I've seen a lot of rule sets. ;) )

11-26-2021, 10:56 AM	#41
Sam Mitschke Chief Creative Officer Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Austin, TX	Re: Cards you want to see @beetle496 Thank you for the apology and positive response. I'm much more eager to explore these ideas when I'm not starting on the back foot. Comparing the values for the turreted light rocket and micromissile to that of the light rockets is sort of like comparing apples and...purple. The light rockets are "traditional" weapons that are, for the most part, similar to other weapons, and their idiosyncrasies stem from their one-shot and buy-one-get-one factors — there are enough other weapons with these elements to extrapolate how we valued them. The turreted light rocket/micro-missile are I PUT YOU OUT OF CONTROL NOW weapons (do your best Ivan Drago impersonation as you say that). The damage they deal and the defense they provide is icing on top of that primary function, and it's useful icing. The light rockets indeed provide 4 durability, but it's all in fixed locations which you must allocate before the game. The turret has less durability, but you can move it around in the heat of combat as needed. This is a great example of the value of versatility and intangible factors that I mentioned earlier. You may not see the value for your car builds or play style, but that doesn't mean the value isn't present.

11-26-2021, 07:02 PM	#42
beetle496 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Frederick, MD	Re: Cards you want to see I concur that a turreted rocket has more RP value than 4x single rockets. I also appreciate that the reveal of a concealed weapon to be a turreted rocket would be quite dramatic! I don’t understand what you mean by moving durability around. Yes, weapon hp in crew area is more valuable than 2x hp on a facing. If crew area hp is something I am looking for, and I have a spare BP, are there not a few choices?

11-26-2021, 08:13 PM	#44
Sam Mitschke Chief Creative Officer Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Austin, TX	Re: Cards you want to see A turret takes damage just as a normal weapon, but it counts as equipped to all sides, so if you have no weapon on that side, the turret eats the damage. However, that can be used to your advantage. If you have a weapon you'd like to protect on the side that's taking damage, you can allocate the damage to the turret instead. It can take damage from one side on one attack, and then you can have it take damage from a different side on another attack. It's armor that has mildly-limited freedom to move around to any side of your car, as needed. And the entire game is built around freedom of choice. That's the point! One item of the same cost isn't inherently stronger (or weaker) than another — just different in it's use, and therefore its value is skewed by your personal need/use for one item over another.

11-26-2021, 09:33 PM	#45
Magesmiley Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Snohomish, WA	Re: Cards you want to see Hmm, this thread seems to have drifted a bit. Sam, first off, thank you for being active in the Car Wars forums. It is incredibly appreciated. If some of us come across a bit strong or argumentative, iI think that it's from a love of the game. IMO, the comparison of Classic and 6E are a bit apples and oranges. They're good for different reasons. Those who love the strengths of Classic (such as simulation, campaigns, etc.), play Classic. If people just want a quick shoot-em up arena battle, 6E is a pretty strong choice. I like both, for different reasons. The point of the turret as a damage sink is a good one. I overlooked that. :) But back on topic... I'm fairly certain that you've got a bunch of other items already mapped out. Hopefully suggestions are still acceptable: Some other thoughts and ideas: Since we already have tokens and cards for a number of things, it might make sense to have some weapons that can drop them. For example, some sort of a water jet that leaves a puddle, possibly with a larger ammo supply or DP to balance it against the oil jet. Or brink back the junk dropper to leave brush behind it. We've got the slab, how about something that drops barrels? It seems like it would be a good way to make further use of cards that we already have. Some sort of handicap or flaw cards that cost negative points. Faulty targeting system, 2nd-hand power plant, retread tires, slipping transmission, etc. Essentially a way to reduce the total point cost of your cards by taking some sort of a significant penalty. For balance, the point cost your total is reduced by would be less than the cost of a corresponding positive item. For example, a second-hand power plant could reduce your PP value by a number of points and you would get another BP to work with (a -1 cost). Maybe a -2 for a No Gunner (driver only) card. Etc. I was always a fan of the limpet mine for some reason. It could implemented as a sidearm, usable only by a pedestrian within the thickness of a turn key. Let it bypass armor and structure completely when applying damage. Having to walk up next to a car and stick it on is already a pretty huge risk for a crew member, so it might be a reasonable tradeoff for the risk. Some sort of a gadget that would let you mount multiple turrets might be interesting. Still thinking. __________________ Dynamax Designs, Designing quality since 2035. Watch your handling and remember to Drive Offensively!

11-27-2021, 08:59 AM	#47
Sam Mitschke Chief Creative Officer Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Austin, TX	Re: Cards you want to see @Magesmiley Thank YOU for saying that, and the only reason I'm hanging around is that I recognize and appreciate everyone's enthusiasm for the game, and y'all have made this a pleasant place to chat. As far as suggestions go, that's fine! However, I'm not reading much more than names and concepts, and I'm actively ignoring suggested game mechanics. Not out of ego or anything, but rather: 1) The game system has some obvious ways to execute specific ideas — I don't want to steal ideas, but we're working with the same tools in a narrow creative band. 2) We're literally already working on a LOT of what's been suggested so far, though it may not be in the way suggested in these forums. 3) We will never be able to make everything that everyone wants in the current publishing/manufacturing/shipping, even if it's all great ideas. So I'm happy to convey my thoughts on whether or not I believe a concept has merit (such as my cloud-shouting about bumper triggers), but if I don't give much feedback on something, there's a good chance we've already got something cooking. I have a LOT of cards already in my database that are just waiting for a product home. To address some of the ideas you brought up: I'm strongly opposed to multiple turrets as the game sits now — for very good reasons that bore out in early testing — but that opposition may vanish if we can implement another game mechanic/product release we're working on. The idea is there, but I can't really deep-dive further at this time. Handicap cards have been in the discussion since before the damage deck was created, and (1) I like the idea, but (2) it's very easy to create unfair situations and remove fun from the table. They aren't a DON'T for us, but they are a big BE CAREFUL item. Pedestrian items are cool, but are a very niche product. I have lists of possibilities, including mines similar to what you described, but we need to make sure the audience is there to make it worth publishing. We know for a fact that not everyone bought that expansion, so on-foot items are two levels of niche down from the primary market. Time will tell on that.

11-27-2021, 01:55 PM	#49
43Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007	Re: Cards you want to see Turrets: Back'n'th'day, no one used them -- they were too limited in what firepower they could carry; they took up weight and cost which could go to Armor, or heavier weapons; they forced players to cover five armor facing, not four, which reduced armor even more. If 6E makes Turrets viable.... __________________ "Dale who?" 79er The Jeremy Clarkson Debate Course: 1) I'm Right. 2) You're Wrong. 3) The End.