Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Board and Card Games > Car Wars

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-25-2021, 08:57 AM   #21
HeatDeath
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Re: A closer look at Explosion Damage

If only one weapon is powerful, you have The One True Way To Play.

But if /every/ weapon is powerful, you don't have a game anymore - the first mover just wins.

If every weapon is powerful, but has a reasonably easy to derive counter, you no longer have a tactical maneuvering contest, just a game of rock-paper-scissors played during the design phase.

If every weapon /feels/ powerful, but they're actually well-balanced, people who notice this feel deceived - "This seems like it should work better -> Make it work better."

I'm no longer certain I have a good understanding of what people actually want.
HeatDeath is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2021, 11:09 AM   #22
beetle496
 
beetle496's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Frederick, MD
Default Re: A closer look at Explosion Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Villarreal View Post
Turret weapons are weak because…

Our mantra during the design phase was "VROOM VROOM PEW PEW." If a game mechanic didn't serve that simple-yet-visceral battle cry, it was revised/removed/killed with fire. Overpowered turrets were an early kill-it-with-fire casualty.
+1 to that mindset and choices made! (Also thanks for the context/exposition.)
beetle496 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2021, 12:18 PM   #23
Aleph
Administrator
 
Aleph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Central Network
Default Re: A closer look at Explosion Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatDeath View Post
If only one weapon is powerful, you have The One True Way To Play.

But if /every/ weapon is powerful, you don't have a game anymore - the first mover just wins.

If every weapon is powerful, but has a reasonably easy to derive counter, you no longer have a tactical maneuvering contest, just a game of rock-paper-scissors played during the design phase.

If every weapon /feels/ powerful, but they're actually well-balanced, people who notice this feel deceived - "This seems like it should work better -> Make it work better."

I'm no longer certain I have a good understanding of what people actually want.
Welcome to Game Design. ;)
Aleph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2021, 03:45 PM   #24
beetle496
 
beetle496's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Frederick, MD
Default Re: A closer look at Explosion Damage

Numbering these:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeatDeath View Post
  1. If only one weapon is powerful, you have The One True Way To Play.
  2. But if /every/ weapon is powerful, you don't have a game anymore - the first mover just wins.
  3. If every weapon is powerful, but has a reasonably easy to derive counter, you no longer have a tactical maneuvering contest, just a game of rock-paper-scissors played during the design phase.
  4. If every weapon /feels/ powerful, but they're actually well-balanced, people who notice this feel deceived - "This seems like it should work better -> Make it work better."
It seems to me that 6e avoids 1-3. Do you agree?

So that just leaves (4) which I think maybe is the main subject of this thread, and it might not be a problem either?

VROOM, VROOM! PEW, PEW!
beetle496 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 08:17 AM   #25
NexusGameTheory
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Default Re: A closer look at Explosion Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Villarreal View Post
Here's some insight from Sam/Randy

"Blast weapons are unique because they are ALWAYS either too weak or too strong, with little in-between.

If a control loss can't put your opponent in immediate jeopardy, you will be underwhelmed with the effect of a blast weapon.

Stripping away your opponent's last control token so your second shot rips through their defenseless chassis transforms even a low-cost blast weapon into something massively potent.

When we tested a stronger explosion effect, it created The One True Way to play. All car builds centered around blast weapons, and with no real counter-play besides driving slowly and taking fewer maneuvers (to retain control tokens), the fun was sucked out of combat AND movement.

Thankfully, if you don't think they are worth the BP, you are left with a ton of other options. Try a different type of weapon that better fits your playstyle and the game format you are in. And you are obviously free to house rule things as you see fit — we just want you to have fun with the game.

- - -

Here is a Car Wars story Randy and I hear a LOT:

"I once built a car so awesome that I obliterated everyone in my first turn! It was the greatest arena battle ever, and they didn't even get to shoot! [deep sigh] For some reason, I just can't seem to get the game to the table anymore."

In a game intended to be accessible to a broad player base, we felt that stronger blast weapons broke our "fun for one" rule (where a gameplay element is fun to use, but miserable when it's used on you). We feel "fun for one" is only acceptable in games with extremely short play length, or else your opponents will not be interested in playing again.

Stronger blast weapons crossed our "fun for one" threshold, but they might not for your group."
Thank you for all that additional insight!

That all makes complete sense to me.

I think I am mostly going for a "more interesting/fun" weapon effect rather than a "more powerful one". When you get the "underwhelming effect" on a one-shot weapon it just doesn't feel as much "cool/fun" in our playtests so far using the pre-built cars.

Once people are playing their own cars in our groups, I think no one will take explosion one-shot weapons unless I make some tweaks to make them more compelling.

At this point I am thinking of compelling, not as "more powerful" but instead as "more interesting". Changing up the battlefield.

I love your reference point of "Vroom Vroom! Pew Pew!" That is the kind of game I want to play :D.

With that goal in mind, for this house rule:
1. Does anybody see something about this that would be too powerful?
2. Does it violate the "vroom vroom pew pew" guideline?
3. Or is this still not interesting or compelling enough and needs something else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFGamer View Post
That's a neat idea. So 1 wrench would cause a D1 skid on the opposite arc of the side hit? And multiple wrenches would increase the D level? Does this cause tire damage unless the driver has control he/she can spend to negate? What if the arc is front or back? Roll a blue die to determine which way? Would a front hit pivot the front and a back hit dovetail the rear?
Yes, one wrench would cause a D1 skid on the opposite arc.
Yes, 3 wrenches would cause a D3 skid.
No tire damage, they didn't actually lose control so never had control they couldn't pay for, the severity of the skid was already rolled with the attack roll.
For direct hits where it was unclear where it would go, in the one test I have had with this so far, I let the defender pay control equal to the skid to control it, or the attacker gets to choose.
I hadn't thought of front and back hits pivoting the car that way, and it makes complete sense I will try that out.
NexusGameTheory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2021, 02:04 PM   #26
NexusGameTheory
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Default Re: A closer look at Explosion Damage

In some additional testing and feedback with 10 other players so far it seems the "explosions cause spinout" rule is fun and fast.

If anything, it might make explosion weapons less powerful since they are now missing that "take someone from 1 control to no speed defense dice". But it plays fast, feels intuitive, and creates a fun battle.

Another way to think about it is that explosions cause a penalty down the road (metaphorically), similar to fire causing a problem next turn and tire damage causing problems later.

From explosions, your car may be "out of position" and you have to make choices to deal with that during your next movement.

Anybody else done testing with this?
NexusGameTheory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2021, 03:35 PM   #27
HeatDeath
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Re: A closer look at Explosion Damage

I actually really like 1 wrench = 1 D of skid.
HeatDeath is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2021, 06:30 AM   #28
Philip Villarreal
Warehouse 23
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Default Re: A closer look at Explosion Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusGameTheory View Post
In some additional testing and feedback with 10 other players so far it seems the "explosions cause spinout" rule is fun and fast.

If anything, it might make explosion weapons less powerful since they are now missing that "take someone from 1 control to no speed defense dice". But it plays fast, feels intuitive, and creates a fun battle.

Another way to think about it is that explosions cause a penalty down the road (metaphorically), similar to fire causing a problem next turn and tire damage causing problems later.

From explosions, your car may be "out of position" and you have to make choices to deal with that during your next movement.

Anybody else done testing with this?
Feedback from Sam:

"As soon as a weapon can move a car during combat, collisions can occur during combat. This opens Pandora's Box.

There are a LOT of questions that must be answered. Here are just a few:

Do you roll yellow dice for the speed of the car that was pushed by the explosion?
Or maybe you designate some fixed number of dice for collisions caused by explosions?
When does the weapon damage resolve? Before or after the explosion moves the car? Before or after the collision is resolved?
Can a skidding car push another car along, or is all of the collision damage ignored if the target car happens to be touching a heavy obstacle?
If the answer to the above question is yes, how do you resolve pile-ups caused by explosions?

Once you've figured all of this out, there's another problem:

When an explosion can cause a collision, blast weapons are now the only weapon you should ever buy. The potential damage is astronomical.

The Firecracker, for example, is a 1BP weapon that can cause an explosion AND deal up to 3 damage alongside the blast effect.

Let's walk through a perfect storm, in which you shoot a car A, which is going speed 5, with your Firecracker:

1) A perfect roll: 3 hits and a wrench with the Firecracker, causing an explosion that pushes car A into car B.
2) This collision causes a control loss, putting both car A and car B out of control.
2) Using the current collision rules, you roll 5 yellow dice for car A's speed — another perfect roll, which results in 10 hits (five double-hit results).
3) Car A and car B each take 10 damage from the collision.
4) Car A cannot defend because it is out of control, so it also takes 3 damage from your Firecracker.
5) Your 1BP weapon just dealt 23 damage in a single shot (and it could be more, as I'm not accounting for attack bonuses from your cards).
6) You have a second shot, with yet another Firecracker, so you do it all again, hopefully pushing the car A/B cluster into car C.
7) Any surviving players are going to do the same thing with their own blast weapons, because that is the obvious best shot.

All car builds are now predetermined. In small games, equip as many Firecrackers as you can afford. In large games, equip as many Linked Hammerheads as you can afford, and use any remaining BP for structure and Firecrackers. All maneuvering is focused on staying far apart and away from obstacles.



We decided to go in a different direction. 🙂"
__________________
Philip Villarreal
Warehouse 23 Manager
Steve Jackson Games
Philip Villarreal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2021, 02:14 PM   #29
43Supporter
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: A closer look at Explosion Damage

Sounds like OG CW -- not only the massive direct-fire damage, but the followup damage when the target has to roll for control; I scored not-a-few kills that way.
__________________
"Dale *who*?"

79er

The Jeremy Clarkson Debate Course:
1) I'm Right. 2) You're Wrong. 3) The End.
43Supporter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2021, 06:54 PM   #30
NexusGameTheory
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Default Re: A closer look at Explosion Damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Villarreal View Post
Feedback from Sam:

"As soon as a weapon can move a car during combat, collisions can occur during combat. This opens Pandora's Box.

There are a LOT of questions that must be answered. Here are just a few:

Do you roll yellow dice for the speed of the car that was pushed by the explosion?
Or maybe you designate some fixed number of dice for collisions caused by explosions?
When does the weapon damage resolve? Before or after the explosion moves the car? Before or after the collision is resolved?
Can a skidding car push another car along, or is all of the collision damage ignored if the target car happens to be touching a heavy obstacle?
If the answer to the above question is yes, how do you resolve pile-ups caused by explosions?

Once you've figured all of this out, there's another problem:

When an explosion can cause a collision, blast weapons are now the only weapon you should ever buy. The potential damage is astronomical.

The Firecracker, for example, is a 1BP weapon that can cause an explosion AND deal up to 3 damage alongside the blast effect.

Let's walk through a perfect storm, in which you shoot a car A, which is going speed 5, with your Firecracker:

1) A perfect roll: 3 hits and a wrench with the Firecracker, causing an explosion that pushes car A into car B.
2) This collision causes a control loss, putting both car A and car B out of control.
2) Using the current collision rules, you roll 5 yellow dice for car A's speed — another perfect roll, which results in 10 hits (five double-hit results).
3) Car A and car B each take 10 damage from the collision.
4) Car A cannot defend because it is out of control, so it also takes 3 damage from your Firecracker.
5) Your 1BP weapon just dealt 23 damage in a single shot (and it could be more, as I'm not accounting for attack bonuses from your cards).
6) You have a second shot, with yet another Firecracker, so you do it all again, hopefully pushing the car A/B cluster into car C.
7) Any surviving players are going to do the same thing with their own blast weapons, because that is the obvious best shot.

All car builds are now predetermined. In small games, equip as many Firecrackers as you can afford. In large games, equip as many Linked Hammerheads as you can afford, and use any remaining BP for structure and Firecrackers. All maneuvering is focused on staying far apart and away from obstacles.



We decided to go in a different direction. 🙂"
Hmm, some great points. Do all the problems just disappear if we say that Blast based movements don't cause collisions?

for example, Blast movement just stops when it connects with something else?

I have no interest in creating a super weapon that anyone must choose :D.
NexusGameTheory is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.